My first kris :)

migueldiaz · 21st October 2008, 02:02 PM

Hello Kai,

Thanks for the reply!

Am looking forward to your (and the others') further comments.

Best regards,

MD

PS - So that's how you handpick a post, with the "postcount" suffix. Thanks for the tip

Bill · 21st October 2008, 05:38 PM

Hi Miguel,
It's a interesting sword. The blade is nicely done. It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C". I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.
The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was. The blade is likely 100 years or older but it's hard to tell from pictures & the fact it was coping a old style.
I bought a small dress kris from Ramon Villegas but can't find his appraisal at the moment. The hilt work it similar and likely done by the same craftsman. If I recall correctly he said the kris I have was Maranao & done in the early 1960's. My blade is hand forged but not nearly as nice as yours or the "old" work in general. I've seen several swords that appear to have the same quality blade, hilt work & ivory pommel as mine. Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.
For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.
Villegas used to have a numismatic shop in Makati, bet you he could give you much better detail then myself. By the way, can you describe the coins?

kai · 21st October 2008, 08:44 PM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

The blade is nicely done.

Note that there's still a little bit of silver inlay attached close to the lower asang-asang. I'm not holding my breath but you may want to try etching the blade.

Quote:

It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C".

I also think that this is a revival piece - possibly dating from after the Span.-Am. war and before 1930. Certainly not what Cato refers to as 18th c. (the curves are not old style, too) and more likely to be early 20th c.

Quote:

I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.

The pics are not taken from directly above - I believe the blade is Maguindanao indeed.

Quote:

The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was.

Yes, IMHO they recycled an older pommel and added the flashy grip section (done in Marawi?). Also the asang-asang are not attached correctly.

If this would be my piece, I'd be tempted to tear the hilt apart, to attach the asang-asang correctly, to add a plain silver ferrule, and to try my hands at a decent grip wrapping.

Quote:

Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.

They are often artificially aged. However, the carving seems to be good quality on this one; I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same age as the blade.

Quote:

For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.

Coming out of the Philippines, the scabbard can't be too old for such a piece: Post-WW2 but there's always the chance that it may have been done "yesterday"...

BTW, some of the blades coming out of the Philippines nowadays show a surface hinting at laminations but are apparently monosteel. They have separate gangya but I suspect that they may be newly done and etched. It was already known that blades with separate gangya continue to be produced for local use; the blades mentioned seem to be a response to the foreign collectors' market though.

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 21st October 2008, 09:41 PM

Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman.
While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir.
Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality.
Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic.
The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

kai · 22nd October 2008, 12:06 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good.

Well, I still feel that the blade deserves better than that "ferrule" and grip.

While the whole ensemble may have been worn by a Moro (I kinda doubt it - the grip looks very new; what's the whitish stuff beneath?), the work just isn't up to the old standards. Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 22nd October 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,

Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kia, I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Rick · 22nd October 2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

So do they .

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

migueldiaz · 22nd October 2008, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

So do they .

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

Hi Bill,

I'm serious

If you'll be in town just send me a note in advance and let's continue talking about ethnic blades over a good restaurant in Makati (the prime business district).

Hello Rick,

Thanks too for that note on the use of the word "Moro".

Actually when we were kids (am in my mid-40s now), our parents told us never to use that word to refer to our Muslim brothers in the south. It's supposed to be derogatory.

But recently and as you pointed out, it doesn't have that connotation anymore.

Like the secessionist Muslims in Mindanao used to call themselves the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF). More recently, the organization is called MILF, in which the "M" refers to "Moro" again I think ... and yes, I know that in the US the latter acronym stands for something less altruistic!

kai · 23rd October 2008, 08:45 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Yes, although I'm inclined to think of this as a downhill trend due to colonial powers and decadence rather than being the expression of a continuously developing culture. Much of the skills seem to have been lost after the Span.-Am. war and, especially, during the early 20th c. After WW2 there seems to have been a wave of flashy innovations regarding dress and souvenir items.

It's interesting to note though that kris were used in guerilla warfare well into the 1970s (or 80s?) which makes them one of the last traditional swords utilized in modern times...

Regards,
Kai

migueldiaz · 23rd October 2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Bill,

I agree of course with your observation.

Occasionally however, blade combat still happens in the battlefield, at least in Mindanao.

I myself found it strange, but please see this blog article .

On the pic [below] showing the soldier [one Sgt. Prado] holding a kris and a "ginunting", a commenter said:

"The kris pictured was one captured from a rebel who went blade to blade fighting with Sgt. Prado and lost not only his kris but his life to the [Phil. Marines Force] Recon Panday [bladesmith] meaning this man not only makes the Blade but has used it in modern day combat and in a Blade to blade duel with the spoils going to the victor. The Ginunting you have pictured is the recon version whose evolution was created from the tests of true combat. it is quite different than the civilian type Ginunting ..."

I don't personally know Sgt. Prado but I have friends who know him. Apparently he is well known here in the Philippines.

Makes me just wonder how exactly such sword fights transpire. Like did they both ran out of bullets first and then a challenge was made? Or was it spontaneous? It's for sure a very intriguing event.

And I also wonder how often such sword battles happen in the battlefield say in present day Mindanao

21st October 2008, 02:02 PM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hello Kai, Thanks for the reply! Am looking forward to your (and the others') further comments. Best regards, MD PS - So that's how you handpick a post, with the "postcount" suffix. Thanks for the tip

21st October 2008, 05:38 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Miguel, It's a interesting sword. The blade is nicely done. It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C". I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu. The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was. The blade is likely 100 years or older but it's hard to tell from pictures & the fact it was coping a old style. I bought a small dress kris from Ramon Villegas but can't find his appraisal at the moment. The hilt work it similar and likely done by the same craftsman. If I recall correctly he said the kris I have was Maranao & done in the early 1960's. My blade is hand forged but not nearly as nice as yours or the "old" work in general. I've seen several swords that appear to have the same quality blade, hilt work & ivory pommel as mine. Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say. For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar. Villegas used to have a numismatic shop in Makati, bet you he could give you much better detail then myself. By the way, can you describe the coins?

21st October 2008, 09:41 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman. While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir. Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality. Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic. The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.