Incendiary quarrels/arrows/crossbow bolts

Matchlock · 20th October 2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stekemest

Great pictures, thank you very much.
I'd like to present pictures of mine, but I have no chance of taking photos at the moment (my collection is not where I am

). I'll show them as soon as possible.
They are only the heads, though.
Peter

Peter, I would love to see your quarrel heads some time. The iron hafts should be very thin and threaded in order to enable the incendiary mass to glue. I used to have some, too.
Owning such heads is as good as anyone could normally and possibly do, anyway.
Michael

M ELEY · 21st October 2008, 03:11 AM

Fearn, for the most part, I agree with Ed in that they are probably inert. That being said, I won't go putting a lit fuse down my Rev War grenado powder hole any time soon. Just read a terrible story about another collector killed trying to saw a Dahlgren shell in half. Probably inactive...but why take chances!

Peter, I would also love to see your items whenever you get the chance to post them. Thanks!

-Mark

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2008, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Fearn, for the most part, I agree with Ed in that they are probably inert. That being said, I won't go putting a lit fuse down my Rev War grenado powder hole any time soon. Just read a terrible story about another collector killed trying to saw a Dahlgren shell in half. Probably inactive...but why take chances!

Peter, I would also love to see your items whenever you get the chance to post them. Thanks!

-Mark

This whole topic is really interesting! and the discussion on old ordnance being inert or not reminds me that they are still finding unexploded bombs from WWII in Europe! In childhood our family lived near an old air base, and on one adventure, my brother and I found in a field, an old WWII bomb, which was apparantly a 500 lb. practice bomb...it was empty so not heavy, and we carried it home through town. You should have seen the looks out of windows!!!! My dad grumbled and eventually put the thing in the attic. When we moved years later, he apparantly 'forgot' and left it in the attic

oops!

Really looking forward to more on these old incendiaries!!! Thanks!

Bill M · 21st October 2008, 01:05 PM

This post on incendiaries led me to a description of a gun, The Swamp Angel, (it may have been a 32 pdr) that was used with "Greek Fire" incendiary projectiles during the shelling of the city of Charleston during the American Civil War.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/swamp.html

I am particularly amused by the passage,

"Gillmore instructed Colonel Serrell to explore the possibilities of constructing a battery in the marsh between James and Morris islands. By one account, Serrell gave the duty to a young engineer lieutenant who, after examining the salt marsh, declared the project could not be done.

Serrell informed the doubting engineer that nothing was impossible and to requisition any necessary materials. A short time later, Serrell received a request for twenty men eighteen feet tall for work in the marsh. At the same time another request was sent to the department's surgeon asking him to splice three six-foot men together to make the needed eighteen-footers."

Unfortunately, though predictably Col Serrell was not amused. He replaced the young engineer and went on to build the battery.

Matchlock · 21st October 2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

This post on incendiaries led me to a description of a gun, The Swamp Angel, (it may have been a 32 pdr) that was used with "Greek Fire" incendiary projectiles during the shelling of the city of Charleston during the American Civil War.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/swamp.html

I am particularly amused by the passage,

"Gillmore instructed Colonel Serrell to explore the possibilities of constructing a battery in the marsh between James and Morris islands. By one account, Serrell gave the duty to a young engineer lieutenant who, after examining the salt marsh, declared the project could not be done.

Serrell informed the doubting engineer that nothing was impossible and to requisition any necessary materials. A short time later, Serrell received a request for twenty men eighteen feet tall for work in the marsh. At the same time another request was sent to the department's surgeon asking him to splice three six-foot men together to make the needed eighteen-footers."

Unfortunately, though predictably Col Serrell was not amused. He replaced the young engineer and went on to build the battery.

Unlike Col Serrell, I am amused!
Thank you for this nice contribution, Bill Marsh!

Michael

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2008, 08:07 PM

Me too Bill!

I'll have to remember that approach, well done!

Matchlock · 21st October 2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This whole topic is really interesting! and the discussion on old ordnance being inert or not reminds me that they are still finding unexploded bombs from WWII in Europe! In childhood our family lived near an old air base, and on one adventure, my brother and I found in a field, an old WWII bomb, which was apparantly a 500 lb. practice bomb...it was empty so not heavy, and we carried it home through town. You should have seen the looks out of windows!!!! My dad grumbled and eventually put the thing in the attic. When we moved years later, he apparantly 'forgot' and left it in the attic

oops!

Really looking forward to more on these old incendiaries!!! Thanks!

Hi Jim,

I hope nobody has stumbled across your left back attic bomb meanwhile ... (sarcastic rolleyes, but I do not know how to add that icon).

You asked for more incendiaries, so here they are:

- incendiary quoites (Pechkraenze); there have been several of them in big auction houses over the last years, e.g. Sotheby's, London, 15 Dec 2004

- two heavy clay grenades (Tongranaten) retaining their original black powder filling and even their original wooden fuses containing a small amount of glued powder. One of the fuses is cut in half to make the powder column visible

- a small Thirty Years War iron hand grenade also retaining its original filling and wooden fuse. Note the details of the fuse!

Enjoy those extremely rare pieces!

Best, Michael

Matchlock · 21st October 2008, 08:15 PM

Mind that the scale is in centimeters!

Michael

Matchlock · 21st October 2008, 09:20 PM

I tested small quantities of powder etc. from each of my incendiary objects, as well as powder taken out of 550 year old barrels that were still loaded (!).

My experience has shown that the old black fine powder will just sizzle and sparkle a bit but will not flash up like new black powder does.

Humidity does rarely account for it as that powder had been kept under cover and away from the air for centuries. So my theory is that the respective substances (coal, sulfur and saltpeter/nitrate), all constisting only of fine powder particles, have become de-mingled over that long period of time.

As far as I know, the first experiments with thick grained powder were made no earlier than the mid 16th century.

I would like to hear your theories on that, Gentlemen; I am not a chemist.

Michael

M ELEY · 22nd October 2008, 03:44 AM

Holy cow, Michael!

You really do have some of the rarest things I've ever seen! I wasn't even aware of incendiary quoits! My favorite piece is the 30 Years War grenado with original fuse! Incredible! I've known that the later 18th century bombs had a flattened dimple on the side to keep them from rolling away in combat or in the "fighting top" of a ship, but I never realized that these earlier models had the dimple as well. Thanks so much for posting them. I'll leave your chemistry question alone (not my area).

21st October 2008, 03:11 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	Fearn, for the most part, I agree with Ed in that they are probably inert. That being said, I won't go putting a lit fuse down my Rev War grenado powder hole any time soon. Just read a terrible story about another collector killed trying to saw a Dahlgren shell in half. Probably inactive...but why take chances! Peter, I would also love to see your items whenever you get the chance to post them. Thanks! -Mark Last edited by M ELEY; 21st October 2008 at 03:13 AM. Reason: Forgot a word!

21st October 2008, 09:20 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Are 500 year old incendiaries inert? I tested small quantities of powder etc. from each of my incendiary objects, as well as powder taken out of 550 year old barrels that were still loaded (!). My experience has shown that the old black fine powder will just sizzle and sparkle a bit but will not flash up like new black powder does. Humidity does rarely account for it as that powder had been kept under cover and away from the air for centuries. So my theory is that the respective substances (coal, sulfur and saltpeter/nitrate), all constisting only of fine powder particles, have become de-mingled over that long period of time. As far as I know, the first experiments with thick grained powder were made no earlier than the mid 16th century. I would like to hear your theories on that, Gentlemen; I am not a chemist. Michael

21st October 2008, 01:05 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This post on incendiaries led me to a description of a gun, The Swamp Angel, (it may have been a 32 pdr) that was used with "Greek Fire" incendiary projectiles during the shelling of the city of Charleston during the American Civil War. http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/swamp.html I am particularly amused by the passage, "Gillmore instructed Colonel Serrell to explore the possibilities of constructing a battery in the marsh between James and Morris islands. By one account, Serrell gave the duty to a young engineer lieutenant who, after examining the salt marsh, declared the project could not be done. Serrell informed the doubting engineer that nothing was impossible and to requisition any necessary materials. A short time later, Serrell received a request for twenty men eighteen feet tall for work in the marsh. At the same time another request was sent to the department's surgeon asking him to splice three six-foot men together to make the needed eighteen-footers." Unfortunately, though predictably Col Serrell was not amused. He replaced the young engineer and went on to build the battery.

21st October 2008, 08:07 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Me too Bill! I'll have to remember that approach, well done!

21st October 2008, 08:15 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Mind that the scale is in centimeters! Michael

22nd October 2008, 03:44 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	Holy cow, Michael! You really do have some of the rarest things I've ever seen! I wasn't even aware of incendiary quoits! My favorite piece is the 30 Years War grenado with original fuse! Incredible! I've known that the later 18th century bombs had a flattened dimple on the side to keep them from rolling away in combat or in the "fighting top" of a ship, but I never realized that these earlier models had the dimple as well. Thanks so much for posting them. I'll leave your chemistry question alone (not my area).