Found it in Maui

kulbuntet · 16th October 2008, 12:01 AM

But were there in late matharam no hindu religion on Java?

I don't know for sure but my friend is a dunkun he poses more than 300 keris, a lot of them are Bali/lombok keris.. he show me what he meant. He hindu javanese that left to go to bali made bali keris over there, the sarong was made balinese the hulu balinese the blade aswel. But in the forging of the blade there was a slight javanese style. Seen on the gonjo and the sorsoran. I wil try to show the difrence to what i mean.

Hindu balinese bali keris

Hind Javanese bali/lombok keris

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2008, 01:57 AM

What we are dabbling in here is the classification of blades:- tangguh.

The first blade shown here does appear to be a typical Balinese blade, the second blade shown appears to be a Javanese blade.

I would not be definite about either unless I handled them.

In the real world, Javanese blades get dressed in Balinese dress, Balinese blades get dressed in Javanese dress, Javanese blades in fact get dressed in all sorts of dress, and this has been the case for many, many years, because Javanese blades have been an item of trade across S.E.Asia, and as far as Sri Lanka, since at least the 15th century. Bugis blades appear in Sumatran dress. Madurese smiths worked all over S.E. Asia, and are reputed to have made blades in the Moro style in Brunei.

Lombok blades are inclined to be a little exaggerated. If it is Lombok origin, but from a Javanese influenced maker, it will exhibit the features of probably Mataram, but will be a bit bigger and a bit more exaggerated than a true Mataram blade. Lombok blades in Lombok style will in most cases be extreme and often display unusual features. Lombok/Bali blades are often very, very difficult to distinguish from Bali blades made in Bali--I would not guarantee that I could do it.

As for Hindu smiths in late Mataram Jawa, well, there may have been a few holdouts in isolated places. Maybe down around Banyuwangi. But then what is "late Mataram"? Some people would count this through to around 1825. Probably second half 17th century might be more reasonable, but then in keris terms you have Amangkurat, and that was Islam predominating in Jawa. Yes, Hindu influences remain in Javanese culture through until today, especially in palace culture, but Islam was the dominant external religious influence in Jawa from around 1525.

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

kulbuntet · 20th October 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

Oke Alan thanks for shearing you knowledge. now an other question, if a Javanese empu made a Bali blade by Bali "pakem", it goes into a Bali sarong and gets a Bali uwer and hilt, would it not get reconised by others as a not "realy" Balinese? Or can it never get indicated as "difrent"?

Regards Michel

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2008, 12:42 AM

Michel, you have raised a hypothetical situation that to the best of my knowledge never existed in a historical context, and cannot now exist.

Let us take a slightly different situation:- if somebody who is not Javanese were to make a Javanese blade according to a Javanese pattern, and using Javanese methods and materials, can anybody guess the origin of the maker?

I would suggest that that blade would be recognised as Javanese.

All blades from their various points of origin in both time and place display certain characteristics. If a person with sufficient talent, sufficient understanding, and sufficient access to resources wishes, those characteristics can be copied.

The major indicators are what determines the classification of a blade, so in the case of your hypothetical, if the Javanese maker lacked the necessary talent, understanding and access to resources, his blade would finish up as still a Javanese blade. If he had the necessary talent, understanding, and access to resources, his blade would finish as indistinguishable in all ways from a Balinese blade made by a Balinese maker.

In Bali, many blades that are regarded as "pusaka", are in fact of Javanese origin.

In Jawa, blades of the Banten classification, and the Blambangan classification , possess characteristics that can easily mislead to classification as a Balinese blade.

Further, blades of Surakarta classification, if removed from point of origin when still in new condition, are often very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate from Balinese blades.

There is a general rule in keris description:- a complete keris is classified according to its dress, thus a complete keris in Surakarta or Jogjakarta or other Javanese dress, with a Bugis blade is described as a Javanese keris. It is only when the blade is considered separately from the dress that the blade will be classified as Bugis.

16th October 2008, 12:01 AM	#1
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	But were there in late matharam no hindu religion on Java? I don't know for sure but my friend is a dunkun he poses more than 300 keris, a lot of them are Bali/lombok keris.. he show me what he meant. He hindu javanese that left to go to bali made bali keris over there, the sarong was made balinese the hulu balinese the blade aswel. But in the forging of the blade there was a slight javanese style. Seen on the gonjo and the sorsoran. I wil try to show the difrence to what i mean. Hindu balinese bali keris Hind Javanese bali/lombok keris

16th October 2008, 01:57 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	What we are dabbling in here is the classification of blades:- tangguh. The first blade shown here does appear to be a typical Balinese blade, the second blade shown appears to be a Javanese blade. I would not be definite about either unless I handled them. In the real world, Javanese blades get dressed in Balinese dress, Balinese blades get dressed in Javanese dress, Javanese blades in fact get dressed in all sorts of dress, and this has been the case for many, many years, because Javanese blades have been an item of trade across S.E.Asia, and as far as Sri Lanka, since at least the 15th century. Bugis blades appear in Sumatran dress. Madurese smiths worked all over S.E. Asia, and are reputed to have made blades in the Moro style in Brunei. Lombok blades are inclined to be a little exaggerated. If it is Lombok origin, but from a Javanese influenced maker, it will exhibit the features of probably Mataram, but will be a bit bigger and a bit more exaggerated than a true Mataram blade. Lombok blades in Lombok style will in most cases be extreme and often display unusual features. Lombok/Bali blades are often very, very difficult to distinguish from Bali blades made in Bali--I would not guarantee that I could do it. As for Hindu smiths in late Mataram Jawa, well, there may have been a few holdouts in isolated places. Maybe down around Banyuwangi. But then what is "late Mataram"? Some people would count this through to around 1825. Probably second half 17th century might be more reasonable, but then in keris terms you have Amangkurat, and that was Islam predominating in Jawa. Yes, Hindu influences remain in Javanese culture through until today, especially in palace culture, but Islam was the dominant external religious influence in Jawa from around 1525. To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

21st October 2008, 12:42 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Michel, you have raised a hypothetical situation that to the best of my knowledge never existed in a historical context, and cannot now exist. Let us take a slightly different situation:- if somebody who is not Javanese were to make a Javanese blade according to a Javanese pattern, and using Javanese methods and materials, can anybody guess the origin of the maker? I would suggest that that blade would be recognised as Javanese. All blades from their various points of origin in both time and place display certain characteristics. If a person with sufficient talent, sufficient understanding, and sufficient access to resources wishes, those characteristics can be copied. The major indicators are what determines the classification of a blade, so in the case of your hypothetical, if the Javanese maker lacked the necessary talent, understanding and access to resources, his blade would finish up as still a Javanese blade. If he had the necessary talent, understanding, and access to resources, his blade would finish as indistinguishable in all ways from a Balinese blade made by a Balinese maker. In Bali, many blades that are regarded as "pusaka", are in fact of Javanese origin. In Jawa, blades of the Banten classification, and the Blambangan classification , possess characteristics that can easily mislead to classification as a Balinese blade. Further, blades of Surakarta classification, if removed from point of origin when still in new condition, are often very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate from Balinese blades. There is a general rule in keris description:- a complete keris is classified according to its dress, thus a complete keris in Surakarta or Jogjakarta or other Javanese dress, with a Bugis blade is described as a Javanese keris. It is only when the blade is considered separately from the dress that the blade will be classified as Bugis.