Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

VANDOO · 10th April 2005, 02:13 AM

IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND

ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

Mark · 10th April 2005, 04:49 AM

Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 06:52 AM

Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing.....

Ann Feuerbach · 10th April 2005, 06:59 PM

FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.

ariel · 10th April 2005, 07:28 PM

I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain.
Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up.
By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish.
As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:40 PM

Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it.
Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training.
Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over?

Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

fearn · 11th April 2005, 04:28 AM

Hi Ariel,

Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree.

Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements.

A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees....

After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer.

Fearn

10th April 2005, 04:49 AM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Update on patronage ... Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?

10th April 2005, 06:52 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing..... Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 10:55 AM. Reason: revivifiable ain't easy to spell right the first time neither

10th April 2005, 02:13 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

10th April 2005, 06:59 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.

10th April 2005, 07:28 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain. Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up. By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish. As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

10th April 2005, 10:40 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it. Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training. Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over? Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

11th April 2005, 04:28 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree. Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements. A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees.... After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer. Fearn