The Flyssa

[fearn]

Another neat discussion. Thanks Freebooter.

I have to disagree with Gonzalo, though. The bronze swords didn't disappear hundreds of years ago. What disappeared was the active manufacture and use of such blades. It's pretty easy for a smith to get a look at an old blade and use that as inspiration for his own work. This is especially true for work of more recent origin. Copying is not continuity, even if the people doing the copying are descendents of those who made the originals.

Here's an example: While it's not a weapon tradition, I like Mata Ortiz pottery, of which I have a nice sample. For those who don't know, this pottery is made in northern Mexico by people of Indian descent. It was specifically (and knowingly) inspired by the the ancient pottery designs of the Pueblo tribes in the southwest US in the 20th century, based on designs that archeologists were uncovering in digs of Anasazi and other regions.

Now, a bunch of the "Anasazi" are known to have migrated into Mexico around 1000 years ago, and so it's quite possible that the people of Mata Ortiz are (in part) their descendents. Nonetheless, they did not keep the tradition of Mata Ortiz pottery. They have revived it, based on old samples and modern teaching.

There's no reason that something similar couldn't have happened with the flyssa.

My 0.02 centavos,

F

[Gonzalo G]

I could take this on account as a possibility, if the vandals were modern man with time to spare digging for bronze swords and using them to be inspired in their design. But the knowledege and study of the anasazi implies the development of modern science, and to be inspired by them, a very modern attitude of a civilized man. I´m sure the vandals found more interesting and useful things in their path, and neverthless they taked them only as a booty. When they arrived to Hispania, the falcata, a weapon from the second iron age, was almost dissapeared completely. At least, this is what archaeology and archaeologists says.

By the way, there is a big and surprising resemblance among the anthena swords from the celts, and those same type of swords from the chinese. Both boronze swords. I wonder what does this implies is terms of connections.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

You're partially right, but the thing is, we don't have a deep historical record of the flyssa either, and an interest in the past goes back several hundred years in the Mediterranean (as does tourism). In the absence of archeological evidence for flyssa development, we can't sort out whether the flyssas are:

1. A cultural survival from the Iron Age (akin to katanas allegedly being a half ken), or more improbably from the Bronze Age
2, A independent local development,
3. A local adaptation of a yataghan, kopis, etc.
4. A redevelopment, based on either someone finding an old blade (tomb raiding, perhaps) or an old sculpture or other illustration.

As for the bronze swords, before the economy did it's little bubble and burp recently, I was thinking of going to the UK and making a replica myself (link). Looks like fun. Personally, if I'm going to own an antenna sword, it might be fun to cast it myself, with help from a smith.

F

[Gonzalo G]

Great idea Fearn!! It would be very nice to have one of those anthenae sword. The little bubble makes a little more difficult to get an original one...But for that purpose, if you can´t go there, you can make one in home. I mean, in your city. Apart form the technicalties, meaning smelting with bellows, the problem is to make a good authentic replica of a historic anthenae bronze sword.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

The subject of the mysterious ancestry of the flyssa has really brought in some great discussion here, and excellent observations. I honestly have been thinking a lot about things that have been brought up, and while the fascinating idea of the Rohrschach application, if you will, in bringing together two flyssa doppelgangers revealing an ancient Celtic sword is admittedly most appealing, it must remain hypothetical.The waisted blade on the Celtic example corresponds nicely with the deep belly on the flyssa, and presents a tempting suggestion, but without either well supported evidence or archaeological proof in examples of prototypes, cannot be developed as a theory.

The subject on Celtic influence in North Africa seems to be best considered as indirect diffusion. While the Celtic culture was clearly widespread over considerable ancient periods, it permeated many developing cultures, with its influences remaining as fiber in all of them. I was thinking, I myself carry Celtic influence, as clearly my surname reflects Scottish ancestry, and as often the case in American people, my geneology reflects Germanic and other influences, all Indo-European, as well. In this sense, Celtic influence did exist in North African culture. I think the link that David posted showed it well, reflecting linguistic associations between Berber language and Gaelic.

The development of the flyssa seems most likely as previously mentioned, through Ottoman influences, which indirectly seem to have evolved from the Meditteranean edged weapons that prevailed in ancient times; the kopis, the machaira and the falcata. These all have the prominant deep belly that seems to have become a key feature in a number of weapons in places such as India, and of course the kukri, which though associated with Nepal, seems to have earlier influences from India. There are of course other sword forms carrying this early Meditteranean influence, including the later developing yataghan of Turkey, bringing us to our point of contact.

Rather than progressive line of development, which of course we know does not exist presently in archaeological evidence, I believe there has been often in many cultures, a reaching for tradition in weaponry, which in many cases might best be considered sought in iconographical sources. Possibly this might explain the adoption of certain distinct features on weapons that have appeared with ancient appearance in relatively modern times. I believe there are a number of examples that reflect this possibility such as the shotel, and others such as the yataghan, therefore indirectly....the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The subject on Celtic influence in North Africa seems to be best considered as indirect diffusion. While the Celtic culture was clearly widespread over considerable ancient periods, it permeated many developing cultures, with its influences remaining as fiber in all of them. I was thinking, I myself carry Celtic influence, as clearly my surname reflects Scottish ancestry, and as often the case in American people, my geneology reflects Germanic and other influences, all Indo-European, as well. In this sense, Celtic influence did exist in North African culture. I think the link that David posted showed it well, reflecting linguistic associations between Berber language and Gaelic.

Rather than progressive line of development, which of course we know does not exist presently in archaeological evidence, I believe there has been often in many cultures, a reaching for tradition in weaponry, which in many cases might best be considered sought in iconographical sources. Possibly this might explain the adoption of certain distinct features on weapons that have appeared with ancient appearance in relatively modern times. I believe there are a number of examples that reflect this possibility such as the shotel, and others such as the yataghan, therefore indirectly....the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, can I point that North Africa was the source of a much more ancient and developed culture than the celtan (the egyptian)? And also, that North Africa continued, thorught the hellenism, and latter throught the romanization, being a great culture? That when the celts were being assimilated to the roman-hipanian society, in the Alexandria Library the scientists were calculating with great precision the diameter of the earth, elaborating the heliocentric theory of the solar system and demostrating the roundness of the earth? I think there are lingüistic coincidencies trought all over the world, as with the sanscrit and the greek and in the other side the mayan, but no proof of intercourses among the mayan and the others. I know how many speculative theories have been elaborated in this respect. I must agree that the mediterranean basin was a great caouldron on great intercourses, but all time the influences are seen as comming from Europe, and this is not true. And even in the european Middle Age, there seem to be a more advanced culture in North Africa than in Europe. Plato, Aristotle and great part of the classic culture was preserved in Norh Africa when the barbarians destroyed it, almost obliterated it completely, in Europe. And they only recuperated it throught the arabs. I also think there is a clear evidence of a more advanced metallurgy in the islamic world, and thus of swordmaking, than in Europe. We need to make a comparative history lines, and see material evidence of such connections (archaeologycal and historical), to establish connections and influences among edged weapons, which I do not doubt they exist, but in a manner different as we have always supposed. And there are also, parallel invention and discoveries.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put Gonzalo, and it is well that the dreary Euro-Centric 'Hamitic Hypothesis' and 'Dark Continent' images of African civilizations (as described by Basil Davidson in "Africa in History", 1966, p.11) have been substantially put to rest, and it is true of course that while Europe muddled through the Dark Ages, civilization in North Africa shone brightly.

Mostly what I was referring to in reference to 'iconographic' influence concerned the stylistic appearance of weapon forms in accord with images of clearly ancient examples. In looking at distinct forms such as the shotel, the kukri, the sapara and others that seem reflected in a number of ethnographic weapon forms that appear to have sprung up relatively recently in ethnic regions, to me suggests that they have been produced to recall proudly ancient tradition.

With respect to weapons that recall earlier traditions, but far more pragmatically, such as the takouba and kaskara, these certainly carry a degree of influence from the hilts of earlier swords from the Crusades period. However, thier development in volume as indiginous weapons was primarily a result of the influx of trade blades into those trade networks throughout North Africa. Therefore these swords developed more from known and actual weapons from those periods than from possibly iconographic images.

There can be no doubt that metallurgically, Islamic swordsmiths were far advanced and possibly a certain degree of their expertise may have entered European blademaking technology. One key to their expertise however, seems to have been primarily associated with the steel from the Indian Subcontinent known as wootz. While these cakes of premier quality steel was certainly exported to many places, the methods of forging it were held secret by Persian and Damascus smiths. There is considerable speculation that in some degree at least some part of their methods were incorporated into European methods, but as far as is known, the famed 'watered steel' was never entirely duplicated in the 'west' (that is until modern versions at least).

During these times in Europe, there was also fine steel found in the regions in the Rhineland, now Solingen; as well as Passau, to the Romans, Noricum.
The Franks were known for thier fine sword blades, and supplied most of Europe into the North, even at times, supplying Islamic armourers. There were high quality blades being forged in the Iberian peninsula as well, with the Celitibereans, and the quality was certainly greatly enhanced by the influence of the Moors and thier metallurgic technology, as previously noted.

It is interesting anthropologically how cultural and ethnographic groups can move over extended time to distant geographic regions, and as various conditions dictate, sometimes return much later to the same regions they left. In this phenomenon they have obviously changed dramatically and assimilated other cultures and groups into thiers and as they enter the now also very much changed former regions, diffusion convenes once again.
This is basically how my reference to Celtic influence in North Africa was intended, in most subtle degree. My inference was regarding the possible adoption of weapon forms by imitating earlier styles as described from possibly iconographic sources.....again noting the absence of progressive line of development shown archaeologically or from provenanced sources.

All best regards,
Jim