The Flyssa

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

G'day Gav ,
a similar discussion on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=flyssa+bronze

Here's a picture posted by PBishop which illustrates the idea beautifully

Regards David

Well done David!! Thats the reference I was trying to think of! I just posted so didnt see this until I closed my post. Thank you !!

[kronckew]

to echo david's celtic bronze halved, here is my flyssa doubled.

[Gonzalo G]

I must agree with Jim. There is no evidence of such connection as the celts and the flyssa. I feel this is a subject which passes throught the european etnocentrism, which sees a relation father to son with some oriental and african weapons. The machaira and the khukri is one of this cases. I find materially impossible that the vandals, which invaded Spain in the 5th Century AC and for just a little time, which had steel or iron swords with designs very different from the bronze age weapons, could take a bronze age design, appropiated for this metal but not for steel, to North Africa, and there, North Africans could split this design in two to make a new weapon.

The first thing the vandals should had to do, is archaeology, as the bronze age and it´s weapons dissapeared hundreds years ago. Very unlikely. The second thing, is abandom their modern weapons to change them for this heavy and cumbersome ones. Also unlikely. Spain, or Hispania, was in the second Iron Age on that time (or maybe latter), the celts already assimilated in many senses to a new society with different weapons.

And then, how should this weapon could survive in North Africa and evolve in secrecy to, let´s say, the 18th Century without traces of archaeological, literary or iconographic evidence on the hands on the berbers, though they had a very relevant historical role from the 11th to the 14th Centuries at least, not to mention their pirate activities on the Mediterranean to more recent times? Also very unlikely. The answer in obvious. The flyssa is originated on more recent events, different from the vandal invassion. The resemblance with the bronze age sword split in two is merely coincidental, IMHO.
Regards

Gonzalo G

[katana]

Now to put the 'cat amongst the pigeons'......

This is quite interesting..

http://amazighroots.blogspot.com/200...onnection.html

http://www.north-of-africa.com/artic...id_article=435


Regards David

PS This translated page (French) gives Berber First Names, Flyssa appears to be a female name....
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

[katana]

Researching the Kabyles and the Iflisen (the group usually attributed as making the Flyssa) I found this.....battles with the Turks late 18thC -early 19thC ........are we back to the Yatagan 'relationship' ...it could explain why the Flyssa 'appeared' around that time


http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Regards David

PS Interestingly the Celts had also settled central Turkey ...a long time ago but some local traditions seem to survive.

[fearn]

Another neat discussion. Thanks Freebooter.

I have to disagree with Gonzalo, though. The bronze swords didn't disappear hundreds of years ago. What disappeared was the active manufacture and use of such blades. It's pretty easy for a smith to get a look at an old blade and use that as inspiration for his own work. This is especially true for work of more recent origin. Copying is not continuity, even if the people doing the copying are descendents of those who made the originals.

Here's an example: While it's not a weapon tradition, I like Mata Ortiz pottery, of which I have a nice sample. For those who don't know, this pottery is made in northern Mexico by people of Indian descent. It was specifically (and knowingly) inspired by the the ancient pottery designs of the Pueblo tribes in the southwest US in the 20th century, based on designs that archeologists were uncovering in digs of Anasazi and other regions.

Now, a bunch of the "Anasazi" are known to have migrated into Mexico around 1000 years ago, and so it's quite possible that the people of Mata Ortiz are (in part) their descendents. Nonetheless, they did not keep the tradition of Mata Ortiz pottery. They have revived it, based on old samples and modern teaching.

There's no reason that something similar couldn't have happened with the flyssa.

My 0.02 centavos,

F

[Gonzalo G]

I could take this on account as a possibility, if the vandals were modern man with time to spare digging for bronze swords and using them to be inspired in their design. But the knowledege and study of the anasazi implies the development of modern science, and to be inspired by them, a very modern attitude of a civilized man. I´m sure the vandals found more interesting and useful things in their path, and neverthless they taked them only as a booty. When they arrived to Hispania, the falcata, a weapon from the second iron age, was almost dissapeared completely. At least, this is what archaeology and archaeologists says.

By the way, there is a big and surprising resemblance among the anthena swords from the celts, and those same type of swords from the chinese. Both boronze swords. I wonder what does this implies is terms of connections.
Regards

Gonzalo