Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

Antonio Cejunior · 9th April 2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

A great example is "Western" academia/music establishment trying to study the blues; trying to define it and ending up saying things like "the blues is a 12 bar music in key X with repetitive themes.....(etc.)" which prompted Willie Dixon to say "That is a white, college definition of the blues....(and thus not at all valid or useful to actually understanding the blues which must be understood from the inside; the inside is a culture that doesn't have "bars" or "keys" in the "Western" sense, yet Euro/academic culture talks as if they have defined it and confined it with their foriegn terms, their nonunderstanding outside definition, which in practical reality is used to say this or that is not "real" blues.)" A bit unclear, perhaps, but my concern over this sort of institutionalization of knowledge, etc. Also, I say, as always, that weapon cutlery is a living art, and its supposed obsolescence is an "over-culture" (mis)perception, and is "news" to a great number of living working cutlers, living martial artists, and ordinary people who are sword owners.

I fully agree

Please note that my main intention is to bring about a constructive discussion about allowing things to exist through hybrid methods as blues itself know no bars but had records and now have CDs

fearn · 9th April 2005, 06:45 PM

Hi Antonio,

There are models other than the Living Treasures and national foundations. For instance:

I'd point to a phenomenon that has revived interest in the essentially dead western martial arts, and which has given birth to a large sword-making industry: the reenactment movement. Groups like the Society for Creative Anachronisms, Living History, etc. (including Civial War reenactors) have created multiple industries feeding their needs for accurate replicas, and for the materials to make them.

In places with an emergent middle class (parts of Thailand, Indonesia, PI, etc), encouraging reenactors might be a good way of encouraging people to get back into weapons making. This could be in the context of the Thai-Burmese wars (take your pick), the many conflicts within Indonesia, or PI, etc. Getting people interested in arming themselves as their ancestors did and restaging critical battles might not be entirely bad, especially if they keep the blades dull and the guns fire blanks

...

After all, if Americans can start the SCA from books (reviving an extinct martial tradition with some success) then it might be a lot easier in a place where the traditions are simply moribund.

I'd also point to the Himalayn Imports model (paying native smiths to make traditional blades for a largely foreign market) as another way to go.

My 0.02 cents,

Fearn

Antonio Cejunior · 9th April 2005, 11:58 PM

Greetings Fern,

Thanks for your contribution. I just raised the issue, have no solution though

But I guess what can work in a culture may not necessarily be the answer to another.

Tom is very right concerning the dangers of lack fo understanding between the outside and the inside. The outside being the extrinsic power(s) that could help but have no real and natural understanding of the inside thus running the risk of destroying something.
The reverse, not doing anything, is also watching something extinguishing itself, as Battara puts it concerning the Philippines.

I think what is on debate is how to help without spoiling. Is this possible with Museums work, conferences, etc?
I found that an exhibition organized in Macau 1999 or 2000 named The Fire and the Forgesaw 80 per cent of the swords sold on the first day and the rest on the second day. None of the people who bought them were collectors, and there were ladies among the buyers.

In other words, there is hope and a generous amount of people here is quite oepn and without prejudice. That is a good beginning

VANDOO · 10th April 2005, 01:13 AM

IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND

ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

Mark · 10th April 2005, 03:49 AM

Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 05:52 AM

Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing.....

Ann Feuerbach · 10th April 2005, 05:59 PM

FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.

10th April 2005, 03:49 AM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Update on patronage ... Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?

10th April 2005, 05:52 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing..... Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 09:55 AM. Reason: revivifiable ain't easy to spell right the first time neither

9th April 2005, 06:45 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Antonio, There are models other than the Living Treasures and national foundations. For instance: I'd point to a phenomenon that has revived interest in the essentially dead western martial arts, and which has given birth to a large sword-making industry: the reenactment movement. Groups like the Society for Creative Anachronisms, Living History, etc. (including Civial War reenactors) have created multiple industries feeding their needs for accurate replicas, and for the materials to make them. In places with an emergent middle class (parts of Thailand, Indonesia, PI, etc), encouraging reenactors might be a good way of encouraging people to get back into weapons making. This could be in the context of the Thai-Burmese wars (take your pick), the many conflicts within Indonesia, or PI, etc. Getting people interested in arming themselves as their ancestors did and restaging critical battles might not be entirely bad, especially if they keep the blades dull and the guns fire blanks ... After all, if Americans can start the SCA from books (reviving an extinct martial tradition with some success) then it might be a lot easier in a place where the traditions are simply moribund. I'd also point to the Himalayn Imports model (paying native smiths to make traditional blades for a largely foreign market) as another way to go. My 0.02 cents, Fearn

9th April 2005, 11:58 PM	#3
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Greetings Fern, Thanks for your contribution. I just raised the issue, have no solution though But I guess what can work in a culture may not necessarily be the answer to another. Tom is very right concerning the dangers of lack fo understanding between the outside and the inside. The outside being the extrinsic power(s) that could help but have no real and natural understanding of the inside thus running the risk of destroying something. The reverse, not doing anything, is also watching something extinguishing itself, as Battara puts it concerning the Philippines. I think what is on debate is how to help without spoiling. Is this possible with Museums work, conferences, etc? I found that an exhibition organized in Macau 1999 or 2000 named The Fire and the Forgesaw 80 per cent of the swords sold on the first day and the rest on the second day. None of the people who bought them were collectors, and there were ladies among the buyers. In other words, there is hope and a generous amount of people here is quite oepn and without prejudice. That is a good beginning

10th April 2005, 01:13 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

10th April 2005, 05:59 PM	#7
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.