How do you like pepper boxes ?

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2008, 07:40 PM

Fearn, thank you so much for sharing that colorful piece of Americana, which really adds contemporary dimension to our understanding these guns! I really love that quote as well!

Its amazing how much history Mr. Twain has preserved for us.
Fernando, thank you for again adding beautiful examples of these weapons, and always sharing your prespective on them. It is great learning so much on firearms here since the forum has begun, and I am always impressed with the explanations and detail you add.

It seems I had once heard the bit about pepperboxes exploding in the manner described (perhaps an explanation for their very descriptive nickname?), but could not recall where it was that information came from. Again, Fearn I really appreciate you citing that quote, which presents at least one source, and I'm sure there are others in firearms lore.

Not being familiar with firearms, I am still unclear on how simultaneous detonation in multiple chambers of a revolver could occur (not disagreeing as obviously this event did occasionally take place). It is quite clear how having the barrels with unobstructed exit prevented tragedy to the person firing it, but how would the detonation reach all the barrels without striking the percussion caps. Would not the detonation flash from the charge in the barrel of the moment be contained?

This phenomenon is an interesting one in looking into the dynamics of firearms, which becomes more and more interesting with you guys presenting all these great examples and discussion, so please bear with me

Thank you so much,
All the best,
Jim

fearn · 8th October 2008, 10:20 PM

Dear Fernando and Jim,

You're quite welcome on the quote, and I'm glad to finally see one of those Allen guns.

Jim--I'm not an expert on blackpowder weapons, but logically, I would guess that the source of the multiple ignition problem lies in the back of the revolving barrel. In modern revolvers, the cartridge seals the back of the barrel, so that the explosion is contained in the chamber. In a black powder revolver, if there's any leakage from one chamber to the next (or from one primer hole to the next) you could get the explosion in one chamber setting off the others.

Just a guess.

F

fernando · 8th October 2008, 11:57 PM

Hi Gentlemen,
I'm no expert either, but i see it close to Fearn's impression.
I would further point out that, in my view:
The black powder cylinders or, better saying, the percussion (cap and ball) cylinders, are not opened in their back; you pour your gunpowder into them like you pour it in a vase, later locking it with the bullet. The only passage to the exterior is inded the ignition cap nipple.
It happens that, when you strike the cap with the pistol's hammer to ignite the powder charge inside the chamber, plenty flames come out the nipple, as the cap is not completely tight. Therefore and potentialy these escaping flames end out igniting the nipple next door, due to their close vicinity. You would then, in a hazardous context, ignite all chambers ... either in a chain succession, which is more likely and, in such case, only shooting the whole thing without bursting in your face, or in an absolute simultaneous deflagration, in such case blowing yourself up, instead of shooting frontwards.
I guess the efect quoted in the first place is like when you want to extract rock from a stone pit. As you don't want your rocks to pulverize with the explosion, you use detonators with a (micro) time delay among them, so that the apparent simultanity achieved is 'false', with your rocks bracking apart but not becoming gravel; how's this for a comparison ?

If indeed things happened as sugested, the coming of the complete sealed cartridge has put an end to these misfire situations; in this case ignition occurs inside the ammunition ... no flames hanging around.
Pardon me for all i said, in case it's all 'bs'.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2008, 05:15 AM

Fearn and Fernando,
Thanks so much guys for the explanations, which really make sense. It does sound pretty frightening to think of all these barrels going off...just one at a time is bad enough when dealing with black powder.
Sounds pretty difficult to work with, and I once had the chance to fire an old flintlock musket, out in the backwoods in Arkansas, where guys still hunt with these and bow and arrow. The ignition, sparks and detonation were pretty amazing and talk about smoke! One could see how in battles like Waterloo, where thousands of these were discharged in unison, nobody could see anything in just minutes (a great book describing this "Face of Battle", John Keegan).

BTW, me, the total novice, with that long gun...hit my target!!!

Thanks again, All the best,
Jim

8th October 2008, 11:57 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gentlemen, I'm no expert either, but i see it close to Fearn's impression. I would further point out that, in my view: The black powder cylinders or, better saying, the percussion (cap and ball) cylinders, are not opened in their back; you pour your gunpowder into them like you pour it in a vase, later locking it with the bullet. The only passage to the exterior is inded the ignition cap nipple. It happens that, when you strike the cap with the pistol's hammer to ignite the powder charge inside the chamber, plenty flames come out the nipple, as the cap is not completely tight. Therefore and potentialy these escaping flames end out igniting the nipple next door, due to their close vicinity. You would then, in a hazardous context, ignite all chambers ... either in a chain succession, which is more likely and, in such case, only shooting the whole thing without bursting in your face, or in an absolute simultaneous deflagration, in such case blowing yourself up, instead of shooting frontwards. I guess the efect quoted in the first place is like when you want to extract rock from a stone pit. As you don't want your rocks to pulverize with the explosion, you use detonators with a (micro) time delay among them, so that the apparent simultanity achieved is 'false', with your rocks bracking apart but not becoming gravel; how's this for a comparison ? If indeed things happened as sugested, the coming of the complete sealed cartridge has put an end to these misfire situations; in this case ignition occurs inside the ammunition ... no flames hanging around. Pardon me for all i said, in case it's all 'bs'. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 9th October 2008 at 12:34 AM.

8th October 2008, 07:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Fearn, thank you so much for sharing that colorful piece of Americana, which really adds contemporary dimension to our understanding these guns! I really love that quote as well! Its amazing how much history Mr. Twain has preserved for us. Fernando, thank you for again adding beautiful examples of these weapons, and always sharing your prespective on them. It is great learning so much on firearms here since the forum has begun, and I am always impressed with the explanations and detail you add. It seems I had once heard the bit about pepperboxes exploding in the manner described (perhaps an explanation for their very descriptive nickname?), but could not recall where it was that information came from. Again, Fearn I really appreciate you citing that quote, which presents at least one source, and I'm sure there are others in firearms lore. Not being familiar with firearms, I am still unclear on how simultaneous detonation in multiple chambers of a revolver could occur (not disagreeing as obviously this event did occasionally take place). It is quite clear how having the barrels with unobstructed exit prevented tragedy to the person firing it, but how would the detonation reach all the barrels without striking the percussion caps. Would not the detonation flash from the charge in the barrel of the moment be contained? This phenomenon is an interesting one in looking into the dynamics of firearms, which becomes more and more interesting with you guys presenting all these great examples and discussion, so please bear with me Thank you so much, All the best, Jim

8th October 2008, 10:20 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Dear Fernando and Jim, You're quite welcome on the quote, and I'm glad to finally see one of those Allen guns. Jim--I'm not an expert on blackpowder weapons, but logically, I would guess that the source of the multiple ignition problem lies in the back of the revolving barrel. In modern revolvers, the cartridge seals the back of the barrel, so that the explosion is contained in the chamber. In a black powder revolver, if there's any leakage from one chamber to the next (or from one primer hole to the next) you could get the explosion in one chamber setting off the others. Just a guess. F

9th October 2008, 05:15 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Fearn and Fernando, Thanks so much guys for the explanations, which really make sense. It does sound pretty frightening to think of all these barrels going off...just one at a time is bad enough when dealing with black powder. Sounds pretty difficult to work with, and I once had the chance to fire an old flintlock musket, out in the backwoods in Arkansas, where guys still hunt with these and bow and arrow. The ignition, sparks and detonation were pretty amazing and talk about smoke! One could see how in battles like Waterloo, where thousands of these were discharged in unison, nobody could see anything in just minutes (a great book describing this "Face of Battle", John Keegan). BTW, me, the total novice, with that long gun...hit my target!!! Thanks again, All the best, Jim