Swedish-Norwegian Naval Cutlass M1800

Ed · 2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM

A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM

The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control...

I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold..

M

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM

Good observation Ed! I hadnt thought of that potential, but well placed. I am inclined to agree with Manolo though, the anthromorphic hilts were indeed quite different.
This still seems to be a vestigial reference to some external influence, and as with many such features often occurring in edged weapons, defies any practical explanation.
Trying to discover practical applications often brings almost bizarre ideas into play, such as the suggestion, still held some by some possibly, that the cleft in the shashka was to use as a rifle stand to support the barrel (much like the separate component I believe arquebusiers used).
It seems there are drilled holes in at least one side of the cleft in Manolo's example (I cant see the other). That only increases the mystery.

The mystery remaining is the well asked question, why would a weapon that clearly follows the general shape and features of mid to latter 19th century forms be classified as an 1800 or even 1810 model? The cutlass misnomer seems understandable, and as I have noted, these dual purpose weapons were more likely to be used in the 'fascine' property by sappers than to serve as an onboard cutlass, with those 'high seas' combat days gone by.

Kisak, is there an identification resource cited for these pieces? As I noted earlier I don't seem to have Swedish references, so it would be helpful for myself and others who would like to pursue the study of those weapons further.

On the observation on the Hafstrom weapon designs of the 19th century, these sound interesting and I'd like to see examples of some of these to discuss. I've really never heard of him or the designs, but it sounds fascinating. It does seem that in many cases, neoclassic designs and decorative features are incorporated into edged weapons, I believe primarily due to thier profound traditional iconic status, especially during the 19th century. Good examples are the French sword designs such as the swords of the early 19th century recalling the gladius, and copied in the U.S. M1833 artillery officers sword.
If I'm not mistaken, the blade on the M1848 fascine knife has distinct similarity to bellied blades of ancient Mediterranean weapons such as the falcata and kopis. Even the term 'fascine' recalls the profound Roman symbolism in the fasces, though in modern parlance refers to the more utilitarian bundles of sticks and branches used in constructing emplacements.

kisak · 4th October 2008, 05:46 PM

I'm afraid all my sources on these are in Swedish. Svenska Blankvapen by Olof P Berg (six volumes) would be my primary source here (I don't think it's been translated), complemented by the exhibits at the Army Museum here in Stockholm, and in some cases auction descriptions.

The m/1810 and m/1848 both appear in all three, but as for the saber I posted I only have a few auction lot descriptions to go by, so that one is still somewhat unconfirmed.

Regarding the m/1810, Berg is of the opinion that it was manufactured at Wedevåg's Bruk in 1809, delivered to Kungl. Kommerskollegiet (~"Royal commerce office" or some such), and finally sent off to Gotland where they were adopted as the m/1810. That it was indeed taken into service around that time seems generally accepted at least.

I can't say I see what those drilled holes would be, and I don't think any of the m/1810 I've seen has ever had any such.

The "fascine" part of fascine knife is, according to the army museum, referring to the stick bundles, and these would have been more tools for cutting wood than weapons for cutting flesh. The m/1810 might not have been quite so far gone in the development towards the tool side, but was probably not far behind. IIRC both Berg, The Army museum, and Seitz (in Svärdet och Värjan som Armévapen, another good one for those who can handle the language) speaks of how the infantry sidearms became more and more camp tools, and less of weapons, from the early parts of the 18th century and onwards.

I'm attaching a few pictures of various Hafström-models that I've taken at the Army Museum. The two nearly identical (with a normal saber to the left) are m/1842 and m/1842-47 for cavalry troopers (according the the army museum, the guard was modified slightly to make more room for the hand inside it). These are the largest Hafström-models adopted.

The two Hafström-sabers with two pipeback sabers on the right side are the m/1852 for officers at the Royal Guard on foot (left), and the m/1853 for sergeants at the Royal Guard on foot.

The highly decorated one finally is an infantry officer's saber from the 1860's, made for general S. Lagerberg.

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2008, 08:39 PM

Thank you so much for the outstanding response Kisak, and for posting the photos of these beautiful swords. The Swedish examples are really quite a rarity here in the U.S. so all the more attractive!
I really appreciate your going into detail and adding references also. The Berg reference is of course really the key reference for these weapons, and I wasn't aware there were six volumes! What a treasure they must be!!

I agree with your observations, and it does seem these weapons quickly became more utilitarian as firearms technology advanced in the 19th century. As always, they certainly were appreciated when an emplacement was overrun, in which case virtually anything became a weapon, so great to have on hand.

Thank you once again,
All the best,
Jim

kronckew · 6th October 2008, 07:14 AM

i really like those kopis shaped ones, i'll need to keep my eyes open for one.
remind me a lot of my more humble one

the fascine was a bundle of sticks used to support earthworks, here's one from yorktown, i had the pleasure of being stationed there for three months. this one would have been filled with earth and arranged vertically as shown to produce a bulwark or ramparts, early sandbags.

fascine knives/ swords were popular with artillery and engineers.

celtan · 6th October 2008, 01:47 PM

That's a beautiful Falcata! The spanish army still uses this shape.

BTW, we are going to reenact Yorktown in a couple weeks at the Battle of the Hook. Any pointers on making those fascines?

Best

Manuel

celtan · 6th October 2008, 05:30 PM

Nice to have you around Kisak. For some reason, either I have gravitated towards scandinavian blades, or they have "followed me home" somehow.

The fact is that I have a few of these beasties:

A danish hussard sabre, an sverige M1831 and two M1853 Huggares , a M1805 British Boarding cutlass that might have seen service aboard the swedish-norway navy, a Huggvarja 1685/1832, a Briquet similar to the danish 1777, and a bilobate heavy sword that migh be ca. 17th C....

I'll post some soon.

Regards

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

I'm afraid all my sources on these are in Swedish. Svenska Blankvapen by Olof P Berg (six volumes) would be my primary source here (I don't think it's been translated), complemented by the exhibits at the Army Museum here in Stockholm, and in some cases auction descriptions.

The m/1810 and m/1848 both appear in all three, but as for the saber I posted I only have a few auction lot descriptions to go by, so that one is still somewhat unconfirmed.

Regarding the m/1810, Berg is of the opinion that it was manufactured at Wedevåg's Bruk in 1809, delivered to Kungl. Kommerskollegiet (~"Royal commerce office" or some such), and finally sent off to Gotland where they were adopted as the m/1810. That it was indeed taken into service around that time seems generally accepted at least.

I can't say I see what those drilled holes would be, and I don't think any of the m/1810 I've seen has ever had any such.

The "fascine" part of fascine knife is, according to the army museum, referring to the stick bundles, and these would have been more tools for cutting wood than weapons for cutting flesh. The m/1810 might not have been quite so far gone in the development towards the tool side, but was probably not far behind. IIRC both Berg, The Army museum, and Seitz (in Svärdet och Värjan som Armévapen, another good one for those who can handle the language) speaks of how the infantry sidearms became more and more camp tools, and less of weapons, from the early parts of the 18th century and onwards.

I'm attaching a few pictures of various Hafström-models that I've taken at the Army Museum. The two nearly identical (with a normal saber to the left) are m/1842 and m/1842-47 for cavalry troopers (according the the army museum, the guard was modified slightly to make more room for the hand inside it). These are the largest Hafström-models adopted.

The two Hafström-sabers with two pipeback sabers on the right side are the m/1852 for officers at the Royal Guard on foot (left), and the m/1853 for sergeants at the Royal Guard on foot.

The highly decorated one finally is an infantry officer's saber from the 1860's, made for general S. Lagerberg.

4th October 2008, 05:46 PM	#4
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	I'm afraid all my sources on these are in Swedish. Svenska Blankvapen by Olof P Berg (six volumes) would be my primary source here (I don't think it's been translated), complemented by the exhibits at the Army Museum here in Stockholm, and in some cases auction descriptions. The m/1810 and m/1848 both appear in all three, but as for the saber I posted I only have a few auction lot descriptions to go by, so that one is still somewhat unconfirmed. Regarding the m/1810, Berg is of the opinion that it was manufactured at Wedevåg's Bruk in 1809, delivered to Kungl. Kommerskollegiet (~"Royal commerce office" or some such), and finally sent off to Gotland where they were adopted as the m/1810. That it was indeed taken into service around that time seems generally accepted at least. I can't say I see what those drilled holes would be, and I don't think any of the m/1810 I've seen has ever had any such. The "fascine" part of fascine knife is, according to the army museum, referring to the stick bundles, and these would have been more tools for cutting wood than weapons for cutting flesh. The m/1810 might not have been quite so far gone in the development towards the tool side, but was probably not far behind. IIRC both Berg, The Army museum, and Seitz (in Svärdet och Värjan som Armévapen, another good one for those who can handle the language) speaks of how the infantry sidearms became more and more camp tools, and less of weapons, from the early parts of the 18th century and onwards. I'm attaching a few pictures of various Hafström-models that I've taken at the Army Museum. The two nearly identical (with a normal saber to the left) are m/1842 and m/1842-47 for cavalry troopers (according the the army museum, the guard was modified slightly to make more room for the hand inside it). These are the largest Hafström-models adopted. The two Hafström-sabers with two pipeback sabers on the right side are the m/1852 for officers at the Royal Guard on foot (left), and the m/1853 for sergeants at the Royal Guard on foot. The highly decorated one finally is an infantry officer's saber from the 1860's, made for general S. Lagerberg. Attached Images

2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM	#1
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control... I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold.. M

2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Good observation Ed! I hadnt thought of that potential, but well placed. I am inclined to agree with Manolo though, the anthromorphic hilts were indeed quite different. This still seems to be a vestigial reference to some external influence, and as with many such features often occurring in edged weapons, defies any practical explanation. Trying to discover practical applications often brings almost bizarre ideas into play, such as the suggestion, still held some by some possibly, that the cleft in the shashka was to use as a rifle stand to support the barrel (much like the separate component I believe arquebusiers used). It seems there are drilled holes in at least one side of the cleft in Manolo's example (I cant see the other). That only increases the mystery. The mystery remaining is the well asked question, why would a weapon that clearly follows the general shape and features of mid to latter 19th century forms be classified as an 1800 or even 1810 model? The cutlass misnomer seems understandable, and as I have noted, these dual purpose weapons were more likely to be used in the 'fascine' property by sappers than to serve as an onboard cutlass, with those 'high seas' combat days gone by. Kisak, is there an identification resource cited for these pieces? As I noted earlier I don't seem to have Swedish references, so it would be helpful for myself and others who would like to pursue the study of those weapons further. On the observation on the Hafstrom weapon designs of the 19th century, these sound interesting and I'd like to see examples of some of these to discuss. I've really never heard of him or the designs, but it sounds fascinating. It does seem that in many cases, neoclassic designs and decorative features are incorporated into edged weapons, I believe primarily due to thier profound traditional iconic status, especially during the 19th century. Good examples are the French sword designs such as the swords of the early 19th century recalling the gladius, and copied in the U.S. M1833 artillery officers sword. If I'm not mistaken, the blade on the M1848 fascine knife has distinct similarity to bellied blades of ancient Mediterranean weapons such as the falcata and kopis. Even the term 'fascine' recalls the profound Roman symbolism in the fasces, though in modern parlance refers to the more utilitarian bundles of sticks and branches used in constructing emplacements.

5th October 2008, 08:39 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you so much for the outstanding response Kisak, and for posting the photos of these beautiful swords. The Swedish examples are really quite a rarity here in the U.S. so all the more attractive! I really appreciate your going into detail and adding references also. The Berg reference is of course really the key reference for these weapons, and I wasn't aware there were six volumes! What a treasure they must be!! I agree with your observations, and it does seem these weapons quickly became more utilitarian as firearms technology advanced in the 19th century. As always, they certainly were appreciated when an emplacement was overrun, in which case virtually anything became a weapon, so great to have on hand. Thank you once again, All the best, Jim

6th October 2008, 07:14 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i really like those kopis shaped ones, i'll need to keep my eyes open for one. remind me a lot of my more humble one the fascine was a bundle of sticks used to support earthworks, here's one from yorktown, i had the pleasure of being stationed there for three months. this one would have been filled with earth and arranged vertically as shown to produce a bulwark or ramparts, early sandbags. fascine knives/ swords were popular with artillery and engineers.

6th October 2008, 01:47 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	That's a beautiful Falcata! The spanish army still uses this shape. BTW, we are going to reenact Yorktown in a couple weeks at the Battle of the Hook. Any pointers on making those fascines? Best Manuel