pacul goang and gadung melati

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2008, 04:49 AM

Usman, I for one applaud your initiative in opening discussion to the wider perspective of Javanese art and culture.

For years I have been telling anybody who would listen to me that they cannot even begin to understand the keris unless they first devote some time and effort to an attempt to understand the broad expanse of Javanese art and culture as a beginning.

You have targeted a couple of keris specific examples, but I personally feel that it would not be astray if we were to touch on some of the more diverse aspects of the way in which the Javanese people approach the world in general.

Let's face it:- there can only be so much discussion of "what dhapur", "what pamor", "what origin", "how old". This sort of thing I find superficial and quite frankly pretty boring. A few expeditions into the Javanese world-view, or the Javanese approach to artistic values might not go astray.

Here we are, right at the beginning of Lebaran--selamat Lebaran everybody--- so maybe now is a good time for us to expand our reach just a little.

drdavid · 2nd October 2008, 10:10 AM

Dear Usman
I also think this is a wonderful topic. While I see many books about the object that we call the keris, what it looks like how it is made how it is classified and so on, there is not very much information as to the role of the keris in a cultural context. Yes it could be a weapon but from the few references I have found its place in society was much greater. I would love to hear more on this topic
david

David · 3rd October 2008, 04:30 AM

No worries Usman, i think we are all in agreement that the keris cannot possibly be understood in a vacuum. It must be put into cultural context.
I could not find anything on youtube for pacul goang, but i found this for gudang melati. Unfortunately i don't see anyone wearing a keris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cZ6IQ4f6Z0

Raden Usman Djogja · 3rd October 2008, 08:07 AM

dear David,

it is surprising me that there is gadung melati in bali. surprising because as I heard before, gadung melati musical composition is quite new. it was compossed during pakubuwono IV era (1768-1820). so, if there is gadung melati in bali version, it should have been existed long before Pakubuwono IV (for instance it has been existed since Majapahit era).

according to wearing or unweiring keris? David, in that youtube I think it was still in rehearsal. Even only rehearsal, they tended to play very carefull compared with balinese music as usual. from this youtube I have broader information that gadung melati is exist not only in Jawa, surakarta especially, but also in Bali island.

perhaps if any kerislovers are able to upload in youtube gadung melati javanese version?

finally, David, what information I shared as I said is still debatable. However, even it is still debatable, I think it is interesting

And who knows in this forum there will be clearer information/understanding.

warm salam,
OeS

David · 3rd October 2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

according to wearing or unweiring keris? David, in that youtube I think it was still in rehearsal. Even only rehearsal, they tended to play very carefull compared with balinese music as usual. from this youtube I have broader information that gadung melati is exist not only in Jawa, surakarta especially, but also in Bali island.

Just to be clear, my observation was not intended to put your assertion in doubt. I was just hoping to see someone with a keris in the video.

Your explanation that the absence of keris might be because this is merely a rehearsal is quite reasonable.

This information certainly is interesting and learning about how keris fits into the culture and day-to-day lives of Indonesians (or how it did in the past) is far more intriguing to me than merely being able to distinguish one pamor or dhapur from another.

Raden Usman Djogja · 4th October 2008, 11:01 AM

dear David,

seemingly, we dont have an opportunity to enjoy pacul goang and gadung melati music composition yet. by this fact, do we assume that these two music compositions are quite sacred? on the contrary, are these compositions not quite popular?

about popular performance arts in Javanese culture. KETOPRAK (javanese opera [?]) is very popular. I heard longtime ago that It was not advised to use real keris during performing a role in ketoprak. Even you were important person in society (a president) whilst you had important role in ketoprak performance (a king), you were still not advised to use a real pusaka. WHY?

warm salam,
OeS

PenangsangII · 6th October 2008, 06:34 AM

in fact, out of respect, real pusaka keris should not be used for any demo or performances like ketoprak. It is widely believed that the performers were in trance / possessed by "certain spirits" (though not 100%) that may cause accidents, in fact the performance itself may be participated by unknown spirit/s similar to kuda kepang performance. If a real pusaka keris were to be trained at somebody, the "isi" would interprete it as killing intent, in ketoprak or whatever performances notwithstanding.

2nd October 2008, 04:49 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Usman, I for one applaud your initiative in opening discussion to the wider perspective of Javanese art and culture. For years I have been telling anybody who would listen to me that they cannot even begin to understand the keris unless they first devote some time and effort to an attempt to understand the broad expanse of Javanese art and culture as a beginning. You have targeted a couple of keris specific examples, but I personally feel that it would not be astray if we were to touch on some of the more diverse aspects of the way in which the Javanese people approach the world in general. Let's face it:- there can only be so much discussion of "what dhapur", "what pamor", "what origin", "how old". This sort of thing I find superficial and quite frankly pretty boring. A few expeditions into the Javanese world-view, or the Javanese approach to artistic values might not go astray. Here we are, right at the beginning of Lebaran--selamat Lebaran everybody--- so maybe now is a good time for us to expand our reach just a little.

2nd October 2008, 10:10 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Dear Usman I also think this is a wonderful topic. While I see many books about the object that we call the keris, what it looks like how it is made how it is classified and so on, there is not very much information as to the role of the keris in a cultural context. Yes it could be a weapon but from the few references I have found its place in society was much greater. I would love to hear more on this topic david

3rd October 2008, 04:30 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	No worries Usman, i think we are all in agreement that the keris cannot possibly be understood in a vacuum. It must be put into cultural context. I could not find anything on youtube for pacul goang, but i found this for gudang melati. Unfortunately i don't see anyone wearing a keris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cZ6IQ4f6Z0

3rd October 2008, 08:07 AM	#4
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear David, it is surprising me that there is gadung melati in bali. surprising because as I heard before, gadung melati musical composition is quite new. it was compossed during pakubuwono IV era (1768-1820). so, if there is gadung melati in bali version, it should have been existed long before Pakubuwono IV (for instance it has been existed since Majapahit era). according to wearing or unweiring keris? David, in that youtube I think it was still in rehearsal. Even only rehearsal, they tended to play very carefull compared with balinese music as usual. from this youtube I have broader information that gadung melati is exist not only in Jawa, surakarta especially, but also in Bali island. perhaps if any kerislovers are able to upload in youtube gadung melati javanese version? finally, David, what information I shared as I said is still debatable. However, even it is still debatable, I think it is interesting And who knows in this forum there will be clearer information/understanding. warm salam, OeS

4th October 2008, 11:01 AM	#6
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear David, seemingly, we dont have an opportunity to enjoy pacul goang and gadung melati music composition yet. by this fact, do we assume that these two music compositions are quite sacred? on the contrary, are these compositions not quite popular? about popular performance arts in Javanese culture. KETOPRAK (javanese opera [?]) is very popular. I heard longtime ago that It was not advised to use real keris during performing a role in ketoprak. Even you were important person in society (a president) whilst you had important role in ketoprak performance (a king), you were still not advised to use a real pusaka. WHY? warm salam, OeS

6th October 2008, 06:34 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	in fact, out of respect, real pusaka keris should not be used for any demo or performances like ketoprak. It is widely believed that the performers were in trance / possessed by "certain spirits" (though not 100%) that may cause accidents, in fact the performance itself may be participated by unknown spirit/s similar to kuda kepang performance. If a real pusaka keris were to be trained at somebody, the "isi" would interprete it as killing intent, in ketoprak or whatever performances notwithstanding.