Swedish-Norwegian Naval Cutlass M1800

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2008, 07:35 PM

Hi Celtan,
Thank you for noting the source for the identification. I thought I had some reference here in the bookmobile on Swedish arms, but apparantly those books did not 'make the flight'. I do have the handy Wagner 'pocket reference'

though! I wasn't aware of Mr. Withers book on world swords, but apparantly he does present good comprehensive reference. I know that he is at present writing a book on Scottish weapons, which I'm looking forward to.

I think the term cutlass is likely misleading in the 19th century, as these sidearms were probably more utility weapons than for combat. This is of course why the heavy shellguards gave way to the open and functional grip, and the quillon terminals are simply vestigial decoration. These were probably used much in the way of the Dutch infantry swords I mentioned, or the 'falchions' used by Austrian sappers in about the mid 19th century. I think the only combat potential for these would have been of course on land, in operations much as Marines, but just a thought without more research.

You're very right on the pleasant experience of finding a 'sleeper' ! This is truly the key benefit of expanding ones knowledge on these weapons, so that you will have the upper hand in those 'Kodak moments' ! I still treasure those of my own experience from years ago, and the exhaustion of trying to keep my composure in not giving myself away in completing the deal....and the explosion of jubilation and relief when it was done!!!

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.

All best regards, and thanks again for posting this!
Jim

chevalier · 1st October 2008, 08:34 PM

the swedes had contact with the ottomans during the 17th-18th centuries as evidenced by this article

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

katana · 1st October 2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.

Jim

Hi Jim and Manolo

,
I too am curious....it reminds me of the 'eared pommels' on a number of Eastern swords/daggers, it would help grip...so perhaps just functional ?

Regards David

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 04:37 AM

HUGGARE svensk, m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring, läderbalja

Wiki:
History

The regiment was created in 1811 when it was decided to organize Nationalbeväringen på Gotland (later Gotlands nationalbeväring) after having experienced the Russian occupation of the island in 1808–1809. The unit was 6,781 men strong and consisted of three artillery companies and 43 companies of infantry and rangers. Gotlands nationalbeväring was reformed into two separate units, Gotlands infanteriregemente and Gotlands artillerikår, in 1887.

kisak · 2nd October 2008, 05:33 AM

Yup, that's "Gotlandshuggaren", the m/1810. As for the identification as cutlass, that's pretty much just the most direct translation of the Swedish designation (huggare). The pommel, as far as I know, is unique amongst Swedish models.

Expanding a bit on the "odd Swedish things" with possible oriental roots-theme, an officer named Hafström designed a few different models for the Swedish army and Navy in the 19th century (adopted models range from 1838 to 1885 that I know of) with a "half-leafblade" design which seems pretty unique as far as European 19th century blades go, or at least as far as I've seen. has anyone seen anything else like them in Europe around that time? Any ideas what might have inspired him?

The pictures shows the army's "Fascine knife" m/1848 (replaced the "cutlass" as the standard infantry sidearm IIRC), and a mid-century saber which I've seen attributed both to Stockholm's city militia, and Stockholm's police.

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 01:02 PM

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

kisak · 2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

No idea. I've never seen anyone label it as such anywhere, and to the best of my knowledge there isn't any other Swedish sword designated m/1800 either.

Ed · 2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM

A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM

The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control...

I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold..

M

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM

Good observation Ed! I hadnt thought of that potential, but well placed. I am inclined to agree with Manolo though, the anthromorphic hilts were indeed quite different.
This still seems to be a vestigial reference to some external influence, and as with many such features often occurring in edged weapons, defies any practical explanation.
Trying to discover practical applications often brings almost bizarre ideas into play, such as the suggestion, still held some by some possibly, that the cleft in the shashka was to use as a rifle stand to support the barrel (much like the separate component I believe arquebusiers used).
It seems there are drilled holes in at least one side of the cleft in Manolo's example (I cant see the other). That only increases the mystery.

The mystery remaining is the well asked question, why would a weapon that clearly follows the general shape and features of mid to latter 19th century forms be classified as an 1800 or even 1810 model? The cutlass misnomer seems understandable, and as I have noted, these dual purpose weapons were more likely to be used in the 'fascine' property by sappers than to serve as an onboard cutlass, with those 'high seas' combat days gone by.

Kisak, is there an identification resource cited for these pieces? As I noted earlier I don't seem to have Swedish references, so it would be helpful for myself and others who would like to pursue the study of those weapons further.

On the observation on the Hafstrom weapon designs of the 19th century, these sound interesting and I'd like to see examples of some of these to discuss. I've really never heard of him or the designs, but it sounds fascinating. It does seem that in many cases, neoclassic designs and decorative features are incorporated into edged weapons, I believe primarily due to thier profound traditional iconic status, especially during the 19th century. Good examples are the French sword designs such as the swords of the early 19th century recalling the gladius, and copied in the U.S. M1833 artillery officers sword.
If I'm not mistaken, the blade on the M1848 fascine knife has distinct similarity to bellied blades of ancient Mediterranean weapons such as the falcata and kopis. Even the term 'fascine' recalls the profound Roman symbolism in the fasces, though in modern parlance refers to the more utilitarian bundles of sticks and branches used in constructing emplacements.

2nd October 2008, 05:33 AM	#5
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Yup, that's "Gotlandshuggaren", the m/1810. As for the identification as cutlass, that's pretty much just the most direct translation of the Swedish designation (huggare). The pommel, as far as I know, is unique amongst Swedish models. Expanding a bit on the "odd Swedish things" with possible oriental roots-theme, an officer named Hafström designed a few different models for the Swedish army and Navy in the 19th century (adopted models range from 1838 to 1885 that I know of) with a "half-leafblade" design which seems pretty unique as far as European 19th century blades go, or at least as far as I've seen. has anyone seen anything else like them in Europe around that time? Any ideas what might have inspired him? The pictures shows the army's "Fascine knife" m/1848 (replaced the "cutlass" as the standard infantry sidearm IIRC), and a mid-century saber which I've seen attributed both to Stockholm's city militia, and Stockholm's police. Attached Images

1st October 2008, 07:35 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Celtan, Thank you for noting the source for the identification. I thought I had some reference here in the bookmobile on Swedish arms, but apparantly those books did not 'make the flight'. I do have the handy Wagner 'pocket reference' though! I wasn't aware of Mr. Withers book on world swords, but apparantly he does present good comprehensive reference. I know that he is at present writing a book on Scottish weapons, which I'm looking forward to. I think the term cutlass is likely misleading in the 19th century, as these sidearms were probably more utility weapons than for combat. This is of course why the heavy shellguards gave way to the open and functional grip, and the quillon terminals are simply vestigial decoration. These were probably used much in the way of the Dutch infantry swords I mentioned, or the 'falchions' used by Austrian sappers in about the mid 19th century. I think the only combat potential for these would have been of course on land, in operations much as Marines, but just a thought without more research. You're very right on the pleasant experience of finding a 'sleeper' ! This is truly the key benefit of expanding ones knowledge on these weapons, so that you will have the upper hand in those 'Kodak moments' ! I still treasure those of my own experience from years ago, and the exhaustion of trying to keep my composure in not giving myself away in completing the deal....and the explosion of jubilation and relief when it was done!!! On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature. All best regards, and thanks again for posting this! Jim

1st October 2008, 08:34 PM	#2
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	the swedes had contact with the ottomans during the 17th-18th centuries as evidenced by this article http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

2nd October 2008, 04:37 AM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	HUGGARE svensk, m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring, läderbalja Wiki: History The regiment was created in 1811 when it was decided to organize Nationalbeväringen på Gotland (later Gotlands nationalbeväring) after having experienced the Russian occupation of the island in 1808–1809. The unit was 6,781 men strong and consisted of three artillery companies and 43 companies of infantry and rangers. Gotlands nationalbeväring was reformed into two separate units, Gotlands infanteriregemente and Gotlands artillerikår, in 1887.

2nd October 2008, 01:02 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks Kisak, BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book? Best M

2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM	#8
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM	#9
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control... I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold.. M

2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Good observation Ed! I hadnt thought of that potential, but well placed. I am inclined to agree with Manolo though, the anthromorphic hilts were indeed quite different. This still seems to be a vestigial reference to some external influence, and as with many such features often occurring in edged weapons, defies any practical explanation. Trying to discover practical applications often brings almost bizarre ideas into play, such as the suggestion, still held some by some possibly, that the cleft in the shashka was to use as a rifle stand to support the barrel (much like the separate component I believe arquebusiers used). It seems there are drilled holes in at least one side of the cleft in Manolo's example (I cant see the other). That only increases the mystery. The mystery remaining is the well asked question, why would a weapon that clearly follows the general shape and features of mid to latter 19th century forms be classified as an 1800 or even 1810 model? The cutlass misnomer seems understandable, and as I have noted, these dual purpose weapons were more likely to be used in the 'fascine' property by sappers than to serve as an onboard cutlass, with those 'high seas' combat days gone by. Kisak, is there an identification resource cited for these pieces? As I noted earlier I don't seem to have Swedish references, so it would be helpful for myself and others who would like to pursue the study of those weapons further. On the observation on the Hafstrom weapon designs of the 19th century, these sound interesting and I'd like to see examples of some of these to discuss. I've really never heard of him or the designs, but it sounds fascinating. It does seem that in many cases, neoclassic designs and decorative features are incorporated into edged weapons, I believe primarily due to thier profound traditional iconic status, especially during the 19th century. Good examples are the French sword designs such as the swords of the early 19th century recalling the gladius, and copied in the U.S. M1833 artillery officers sword. If I'm not mistaken, the blade on the M1848 fascine knife has distinct similarity to bellied blades of ancient Mediterranean weapons such as the falcata and kopis. Even the term 'fascine' recalls the profound Roman symbolism in the fasces, though in modern parlance refers to the more utilitarian bundles of sticks and branches used in constructing emplacements.