Sundang, moro kris or whatelse?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

From the photos posted, my impression is that of a Peninsular Sundang with Maguindanao origin/influence. I have seen similar etching. Pommel can be one piece with the hilt (gilded or not), if made of ebony/horn, or a separate piece of ivory. The cockatoo shape is usually more stylised (smooth). Sometimes, a cup is used instead of a ferrule. Unusual to retain the stirrup.

All the best

[Newsteel]

I do not have much knowledge about sundang but would agree with Amuk Murugul. This sundang looks Malay to me or possible Riau.

[PenangsangII]

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang

[Flavio]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang

Newsteel,

sorry for my ignorance, but what is the nyepuhan style and the kembang kacan?

Thank you so much

Flavio

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

The scabbard suggests Riau-Lingga.

Best.

[Battara]

It is also a Sulu style in scabbards as well......

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang

Nice word "nyepuhan". I believe it refers to the temper mark left by quenching. I don't really see such a mark in the first kris shown here. Are you referring to this lastest kris Flavio posted? The mark is clear there, but that is not the kris which is under discussion.
I really don't know what can possibly be judged from the "kembang kacang" in this case as it is far too eroded to make a call on.
I have also seen this style of scabbard with Sulu kris.
I don't see anything here that would clearly indicate a peninsula origin.

[Rick]

I'm still wondering if that's a scarf, or lap weld on the original blade .
Could we see the other side please ?

I don't recall, in my own experience, ever seeing a scarf weld on a sundang blade .

[Flavio]

Hi Rick,

On the other side there is a similar sign, soon I will post some pics.

Thanks

[Flavio]

David,

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle? I ask just to know

Regards
Flavio

[Bill]

Flavio, It' different but the pics don't tell the whole story, at least for me.
First you have to figure what was original to the sword & I would guess nothing.
The scabbard is top grade but I doubt it's very close to be as old as the sword. It looks to me as Bugis/Malay.
I'm not sure about the blade itself. Could it be that it was over-cleaned with some sort of acid or chemicals?
The stirrup & metal rings look fairly new. If someone carried that sword everyday they would be dented/scraped.
Surprised there is not more opinions on the hilt pommel. I don't think it's horn, but I don't know what type of Ivory. Some sort of tooth? It looks like it broke, was repaired & filled; then stained to make the repairs less noticed.

[Flavio]

Thank you Bill! For sure the pommel was restored, there is some kind of putty... What I'd like to know is if also the rest of the handle is restored/replaced since a handle of horn is very strange for an "original" moro, but if it was from another place than could be original.... Anyway the collar around the pommel shows some losses, I will post some pics.

Thanks
FLavio

[David]

Originally Posted by Flavio

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle?

As for the blade Flavio it just looks like abuse and someone's perhaps misguided attempt to "restore" it. Can't speak for the hilt being horn. Could be a later addition, a marriage that is not quite traditional. A replacement. Who knows. The ivory pommel looks Moro to me though and as Spiral has pointed out, the reason there have not been more opinions on it is that it is pretty obvious even to me that it is 100% elephant ivory. A few have mentioned that they think the sheath is peninsula or Bugis in origin, but i am pretty sure i have seen this type of sheath used by the Moro and i also think that the toe of the sheath stem has a distinct Moro termination.
How is the fit of the blade in the sheath anyway? Was this sheath made for this blade?

[Flavio]

Here are some pics of both sides of the blade, the putty on the pommel and the fit with the scabbard