Persian date opinion sought on khanjar

Atlantia · 25th September 2008, 11:50 PM

Its beautiful from tip to toe isn't it?
The chap with the big moustache is very interesting. I can't help but think of the Green Man - 'jack in the green' images often carved into english churchs especially rood screens. 'jack' has a 'moustache' which can be anything from a very long curling moustache to actual leaves and foliage sprouting from his nostrils. The image is also often framed by other swirling leaf-like scrolls. The image on your dagger hilt really brings these to mind.

Atlantia · 26th September 2008, 12:01 AM

LOL, its late here and I've been up for nearly 48 hours with an ill dog so if I'm barking ;-) up the wrong tree please make allowances.
Have a look at this quote from wiki concerning the green man in other cultures:

In his A Little Book of The Green Man, as well as his website, Mike Harding gives examples of similar figures in Borneo, Nepal, and India: the earliest is a foliate head from an 8th century Jain temple in Rajasthan.[13] He also notes that heads from Lebanon and Iraq can be dated to the 2nd century and that there are early Romanesque foliate heads in 11th century Templar churches in Jerusalem. He tentatively suggests that the symbol may have originated in Asia Minor and been brought to Europe by travelling stonecarvers.

Other gods depicted green are (in Tibet) Amogha-siddhi and (in Mexico) Tlaloc.

In Sanskrit the Green Man is cognate with the gana Kirtimukha or "Face of Glory" which is related to a lila of Shiva and Rahu. The Face of Glory is often seen in Vajrayana Buddhist Thanka art and iconography where it is often incorporated as a cloudform simulacrum; and depicted crowning the 'Wheel of Becoming' or the Bhavachakra.[14]

If you want to see his site:
http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/

Chesk out the green man section and 'green man in India'. Some similarities.

He says: ' If we suppose a common Indo-European origin for our language then the idea of symbols and myths travelling across to Europe from India and Persia seems less than fanciful to me'

Obviously its a more distintly 'Indian' image in the above pic, but the fact that it IS more like a European 'green man' image and not a 'face of glory' Indian/asian image is very interesting. Yours looks very much more European, in fact the entire piece looks like that oriental influeneced european carved Ivory from the medieval period onwards.

The V&A has a similar dagger to yours but I cant find a better picture:

rand · 26th September 2008, 02:02 PM

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

Atlantia · 26th September 2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

Hi Rand,

Its certainly an interesting area for research, have you seen this 'moustached' man represented on other weapons?
I've found a sim ilar image on a shield, but the picture is terrible.
Still, you can see the similarities.
Any thoughts?

rand · 26th September 2008, 09:50 PM

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

Atlantia · 26th September 2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

LOL, well its funny you should say that, I was thinking of the classic image of teh 19th century asian/Indian gentleman with his large moustache. Is it possible that its just a reflection of fashion?

OR for that matter the British military types of the period too! Handlebar moustahes were somewhat a theme!

rand · 27th September 2008, 04:47 PM

Hi Gene,

My preliminary feeling is that the mustache is a style of the time, but more information could change that opinion. Certainly is a posibility of a desgn wanted by the artist. If a wide mustache was in style only during the 19th century, it would add more credence to the nuumber six being used in the date.

rand

26th September 2008, 12:01 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	LOL, its late here and I've been up for nearly 48 hours with an ill dog so if I'm barking ;-) up the wrong tree please make allowances. Have a look at this quote from wiki concerning the green man in other cultures: In his A Little Book of The Green Man, as well as his website, Mike Harding gives examples of similar figures in Borneo, Nepal, and India: the earliest is a foliate head from an 8th century Jain temple in Rajasthan.[13] He also notes that heads from Lebanon and Iraq can be dated to the 2nd century and that there are early Romanesque foliate heads in 11th century Templar churches in Jerusalem. He tentatively suggests that the symbol may have originated in Asia Minor and been brought to Europe by travelling stonecarvers. Other gods depicted green are (in Tibet) Amogha-siddhi and (in Mexico) Tlaloc. In Sanskrit the Green Man is cognate with the gana Kirtimukha or "Face of Glory" which is related to a lila of Shiva and Rahu. The Face of Glory is often seen in Vajrayana Buddhist Thanka art and iconography where it is often incorporated as a cloudform simulacrum; and depicted crowning the 'Wheel of Becoming' or the Bhavachakra.[14] If you want to see his site: http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/ Chesk out the green man section and 'green man in India'. Some similarities. He says: ' If we suppose a common Indo-European origin for our language then the idea of symbols and myths travelling across to Europe from India and Persia seems less than fanciful to me' Obviously its a more distintly 'Indian' image in the above pic, but the fact that it IS more like a European 'green man' image and not a 'face of glory' Indian/asian image is very interesting. Yours looks very much more European, in fact the entire piece looks like that oriental influeneced european carved Ivory from the medieval period onwards. The V&A has a similar dagger to yours but I cant find a better picture: Last edited by Atlantia; 26th September 2008 at 12:26 AM.

26th September 2008, 02:02 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Flow of culture Hey Gene, Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date. So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact. This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia. The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork. rand

26th September 2008, 09:50 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Mustached Figure Hey Gene, Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy. See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity. Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here. Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating. rand

27th September 2008, 04:47 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Mustache Hi Gene, My preliminary feeling is that the mustache is a style of the time, but more information could change that opinion. Certainly is a posibility of a desgn wanted by the artist. If a wide mustache was in style only during the 19th century, it would add more credence to the nuumber six being used in the date. rand

25th September 2008, 11:50 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its beautiful from tip to toe isn't it? The chap with the big moustache is very interesting. I can't help but think of the Green Man - 'jack in the green' images often carved into english churchs especially rood screens. 'jack' has a 'moustache' which can be anything from a very long curling moustache to actual leaves and foliage sprouting from his nostrils. The image is also often framed by other swirling leaf-like scrolls. The image on your dagger hilt really brings these to mind.