A unique 1530's tinder snap-lock haquebut

Matchlock · 25th September 2008, 07:16 PM

Caliber is 19 mm, of course, instead of 19 cm.

Also note the roped decoration marking the barrel stages and the long muzzle section (head) left free by the stockmaker. We have noticed that stylistic feature on many hand firearms ranging from ca. 1520 to the early 1540's.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2008, 01:10 AM

In looking at this great example of an early firearm, and determined to learn more about these 'guns' (for me basically starting from scratch

my questions and initial reading as always leans toward terminology and etymology of those used.

Having difficulty finding definitions of harquebus/ hackbut or hagbut, references I found suggest that the harquebus term is also 'arquebus' which was easier to find. The German hakinbihse = hook gun, referring to the bent shape of the butt, as opposed to the straight stocked guns. One other explanation suggested a metal hook near the muzzle to take aim and secure for recoil.

Apparantly improvements by Strozzi c.1530 included standardizing calibers of these in French army. The musket followed about the 1570's.

As always I am keyed to markings, and on the barrel notice the roped design at locations around the barrel , and these remind me of barrel rings to secure the barrel, stylistically of course. It seems that in many cases with weapons, the shapes and designs in features sometimes recall vestigially things no longer required or used. I am curious though, why actual bands would not be secured around the barrel to hold it to the stock.

I notice the fletching marking, which recalls of course the arrow, and wonder about the suggestion to the esteemed crossbow. The arrow marking became well known with the establishing of ordnance department by Henry VIII in England (these with the arrow head) but I wonder if the idea of the fletching the intent might have been in concept of the shot flying true to its target?
The three dots are well known in markings in many instances in sword blades and likely carry the often discussed symbolism.

Matchlock · 19th October 2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In looking at this great example of an early firearm, and determined to learn more about these 'guns' (for me basically starting from scratch

my questions and initial reading as always leans toward terminology and etymology of those used.

Having difficulty finding definitions of harquebus/ hackbut or hagbut, references I found suggest that the harquebus term is also 'arquebus' which was easier to find. The German hakinbihse = hook gun, referring to the bent shape of the butt, as opposed to the straight stocked guns. One other explanation suggested a metal hook near the muzzle to take aim and secure for recoil.

Apparantly improvements by Strozzi c.1530 included standardizing calibers of these in French army. The musket followed about the 1570's.

As always I am keyed to markings, and on the barrel notice the roped design at locations around the barrel , and these remind me of barrel rings to secure the barrel, stylistically of course. It seems that in many cases with weapons, the shapes and designs in features sometimes recall vestigially things no longer required or used. I am curious though, why actual bands would not be secured around the barrel to hold it to the stock.

I notice the fletching marking, which recalls of course the arrow, and wonder about the suggestion to the esteemed crossbow. The arrow marking became well known with the establishing of ordnance department by Henry VIII in England (these with the arrow head) but I wonder if the idea of the fletching the intent might have been in concept of the shot flying true to its target?
The three dots are well known in markings in many instances in sword blades and likely carry the often discussed symbolism.

Hi Jim,

Actually, the term Hakenbüchse does not derive from a hooked stock (in fact, all stocks before ca. 1520 were more or less quite straight!) but from the iron support hook welded to the underside of the barrels from ca. 1430 onwards.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2008, 04:58 AM

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the clarification on the origin of the term. In the reference I had it gave two options, so its good to know the correct one.
Great to have you back!!!

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 22nd October 2008, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the clarification on the origin of the term. In the reference I had it gave two options, so its good to know the correct one.
Great to have you back!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim, I realized that you gave two options. Please forgive me for not discussing them in detail.
Thanks to your messsages, my friend. I have only got a tiny lucky chance to grasp a bit of your wide competence comprising arms, literature, philosophy and the real life...

My bad: I forgot to mention that the word hook, among others, derives from the German term Haken meaning hook. I feel that this makes clear the direct deduction.

All the best to you, my friend!!! Keep trackin' ...
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd November 2008, 12:08 AM

From the Maximilianische Zeugbücher, illustrated in watercolors by Jörg Kölderer et.al., Innsbruck, ca., 1505-7.

In former posts I mentioned the colors red and green as being especially characteristic of clothes and arts and crafts of the late Gothic/early Renaisssance periods.

Michael

Ister · 22nd December 2014, 08:16 AM

Hello everyone! Now i'm attenpting to make something like replica of this gun, and I've met a dilemma concerning its colour. It is obviously seen that under a layer of green paint there is dark wood toning. I wonder whether it might be an original stock colour, and paint layer is just more recent, like in Vienna museum, or the wooden surface could be treated to such tone under exposure of oil (or somewhat other) paint.

This is the only stock I found that is painted in such a bright colour, and i've found pretty few images showing coloured guns - all from "Bartholomaeus Freysleben: Inventarium über Büchsen und Zeug im Kaiserreich zur Zeit Maximilians I. Innsbruck 1495-1500."

Maybe you could help me to determine whether to paint the stock green or just to tone it dark.

Thank for attention. If it is interesting, I'll show photos of my replica after I'll finish

2nd November 2008, 12:08 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	500 year old guns with green stocks From the Maximilianische Zeugbücher, illustrated in watercolors by Jörg Kölderer et.al., Innsbruck, ca., 1505-7. In former posts I mentioned the colors red and green as being especially characteristic of clothes and arts and crafts of the late Gothic/early Renaisssance periods. Michael Attached Images

25th September 2008, 07:16 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Caliber is 19 mm, of course, instead of 19 cm. Also note the roped decoration marking the barrel stages and the long muzzle section (head) left free by the stockmaker. We have noticed that stylistic feature on many hand firearms ranging from ca. 1520 to the early 1540's.

27th September 2008, 01:10 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	In looking at this great example of an early firearm, and determined to learn more about these 'guns' (for me basically starting from scratch my questions and initial reading as always leans toward terminology and etymology of those used. Having difficulty finding definitions of harquebus/ hackbut or hagbut, references I found suggest that the harquebus term is also 'arquebus' which was easier to find. The German hakinbihse = hook gun, referring to the bent shape of the butt, as opposed to the straight stocked guns. One other explanation suggested a metal hook near the muzzle to take aim and secure for recoil. Apparantly improvements by Strozzi c.1530 included standardizing calibers of these in French army. The musket followed about the 1570's. As always I am keyed to markings, and on the barrel notice the roped design at locations around the barrel , and these remind me of barrel rings to secure the barrel, stylistically of course. It seems that in many cases with weapons, the shapes and designs in features sometimes recall vestigially things no longer required or used. I am curious though, why actual bands would not be secured around the barrel to hold it to the stock. I notice the fletching marking, which recalls of course the arrow, and wonder about the suggestion to the esteemed crossbow. The arrow marking became well known with the establishing of ordnance department by Henry VIII in England (these with the arrow head) but I wonder if the idea of the fletching the intent might have been in concept of the shot flying true to its target? The three dots are well known in markings in many instances in sword blades and likely carry the often discussed symbolism.

20th October 2008, 04:58 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Michael, Thank you for the clarification on the origin of the term. In the reference I had it gave two options, so its good to know the correct one. Great to have you back!!! All the best, Jim

22nd December 2014, 08:16 AM	#7
Ister Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Ukraine, Zaporizhzhya Posts: 2	Hello everyone! Now i'm attenpting to make something like replica of this gun, and I've met a dilemma concerning its colour. It is obviously seen that under a layer of green paint there is dark wood toning. I wonder whether it might be an original stock colour, and paint layer is just more recent, like in Vienna museum, or the wooden surface could be treated to such tone under exposure of oil (or somewhat other) paint. This is the only stock I found that is painted in such a bright colour, and i've found pretty few images showing coloured guns - all from "Bartholomaeus Freysleben: Inventarium über Büchsen und Zeug im Kaiserreich zur Zeit Maximilians I. Innsbruck 1495-1500." Maybe you could help me to determine whether to paint the stock green or just to tone it dark. Thank for attention. If it is interesting, I'll show photos of my replica after I'll finish