Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?

A. G. Maisey · 19th September 2008, 02:12 PM

Van Dapperen, Michael?

Do you mean Van Der Hoop, or is Van Dapperen a separate reference?

On the "dittos", yes, I think you're right. I just went back and had another look at that text. Makes a difference if one wears glasses when reading it.

But still, Ceribon or Jawa, or Middle Jawa, I'm not really too fussed about. What I find interesting is this distinctly Jawa demam pattern being associated with Jawa. I've never seen anything anywhere that would suggest that this pattern is a Jawa pattern, but Pak Gonjo seemed pretty sure of himself, so he must have some solid evidence somewhere, and publication in this textbook intended for use in Indonesian educational institutions seems to put it beyond doubt.

Yes, you can't see the head shape in the Van Der Hoop illustration, and this still leaves room for doubt.

However, at this moment I am still puzzling over exactly how and where this Jawa demam form fits into the range of Jawa hilts of which we are certain.
I don't think I want to get into discussion of hand positions at this point, because from my perspective we are still trying to find some sort of certainty on the overall form. If we can achieve that, then maybe we can consider the detail.In any case, you can bet on it that when it was carved, it was carved in conformity with a specific pattern, and the carver himself probably didn't have the vaguest idea of what he was carving:- we see a mudra; the carver saw something that he'd been taught to carve.

VVV · 19th September 2008, 02:57 PM

My fault,

I mixed up vd Hoop with v Dapperen, the authour of a Dutch article on keris hilts, and an otherwise quite productive ethnographer.
Makes a difference if one has had a breakfast espresso, or not, before posting...

I look forward to more comments on Alan's post.

Michael

Marcokeris · 20th September 2008, 11:59 PM

Another Jawa Solo (?) hit from classic Bezemer's Indonesische Kunstnijverheid

VVV · 21st September 2008, 09:04 PM

Thanks for sharing, Marco!

It seems like the original hilt of the earlier published illustration.
To me it looks much more like a Raksasa hilt than a birdlike Jawa Demam.
No beak and no garuda mungkur but a resembling arm position.
The style is however quite different compared to for instance my avatar.
I am not that convinced that this was a Javanese hilt variation with wide distribution.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2008, 10:24 PM

I think you're right about that illustration I posted, Michael. It probably lacks the triangular head shape we see in other Jawa demams.

When some of these publications give an attribution for an example of S.E Asian art , the attribution is based on where the object was collected, that does not necessarily mean that it originated there, and in the case of something like a keris hilt the European writer would be very unlikely to have much knowledge about that class of object.

So if we look at the example from Bezemer with an attribution of Solo, that Marco has posted, I believe that we are seeing where it was collected. I have never seen anything genuinely associated with Solo that would support that place as a point of origin for Bezemer's Solo hilt.

I think maybe we're still at the starting gate with this hilt form. Maybe its Jawa, but Jawa where?

20th September 2008, 11:59 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Another Jawa Solo (?) hit from classic Bezemer's Indonesische Kunstnijverheid Attached Images

19th September 2008, 02:12 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Van Dapperen, Michael? Do you mean Van Der Hoop, or is Van Dapperen a separate reference? On the "dittos", yes, I think you're right. I just went back and had another look at that text. Makes a difference if one wears glasses when reading it. But still, Ceribon or Jawa, or Middle Jawa, I'm not really too fussed about. What I find interesting is this distinctly Jawa demam pattern being associated with Jawa. I've never seen anything anywhere that would suggest that this pattern is a Jawa pattern, but Pak Gonjo seemed pretty sure of himself, so he must have some solid evidence somewhere, and publication in this textbook intended for use in Indonesian educational institutions seems to put it beyond doubt. Yes, you can't see the head shape in the Van Der Hoop illustration, and this still leaves room for doubt. However, at this moment I am still puzzling over exactly how and where this Jawa demam form fits into the range of Jawa hilts of which we are certain. I don't think I want to get into discussion of hand positions at this point, because from my perspective we are still trying to find some sort of certainty on the overall form. If we can achieve that, then maybe we can consider the detail.In any case, you can bet on it that when it was carved, it was carved in conformity with a specific pattern, and the carver himself probably didn't have the vaguest idea of what he was carving:- we see a mudra; the carver saw something that he'd been taught to carve.

19th September 2008, 02:57 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	My fault, I mixed up vd Hoop with v Dapperen, the authour of a Dutch article on keris hilts, and an otherwise quite productive ethnographer. Makes a difference if one has had a breakfast espresso, or not, before posting... I look forward to more comments on Alan's post. Michael

21st September 2008, 09:04 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for sharing, Marco! It seems like the original hilt of the earlier published illustration. To me it looks much more like a Raksasa hilt than a birdlike Jawa Demam. No beak and no garuda mungkur but a resembling arm position. The style is however quite different compared to for instance my avatar. I am not that convinced that this was a Javanese hilt variation with wide distribution. Michael

24th September 2008, 10:24 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I think you're right about that illustration I posted, Michael. It probably lacks the triangular head shape we see in other Jawa demams. When some of these publications give an attribution for an example of S.E Asian art , the attribution is based on where the object was collected, that does not necessarily mean that it originated there, and in the case of something like a keris hilt the European writer would be very unlikely to have much knowledge about that class of object. So if we look at the example from Bezemer with an attribution of Solo, that Marco has posted, I believe that we are seeing where it was collected. I have never seen anything genuinely associated with Solo that would support that place as a point of origin for Bezemer's Solo hilt. I think maybe we're still at the starting gate with this hilt form. Maybe its Jawa, but Jawa where?