Plz help ID medieval Main Aigu LH dagger

Atlantia · 15th September 2008, 05:48 PM

Hi Manuel,

I like the dagger. I have some reservations, mostly about the ebony grip, but overall it seems like its construction is fairly consistant throughout, medium quality, slightly more elaborate than would be expected.
The pommel does appear to be a 18thC style urn pommel, but the more I look at it the more I just wonder if its a bit of a hybrid of 17thC styles?
The closest I can find is on a Hungarian executioners sword from about 1620.

But there are other swords and daggers from the 17th that do have some similarities to the urn form, this could just be a slightly skewed interpretation of one of those forms made by a medium skilled artisan. (Just an idea)

Pappenheimers seem to sometimes have pommels that are more asymetric and 'urn like'.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2008, 07:54 PM

Well placed ideas Atlantia! I like your way of thinking, and the examples you show give plausible cause for consideration. The ebony grip is the key point that I noticed as well, but the piece does have definite character, which is often why I tend to like munition grade items. I agree this is a bit above that guage though.

katana · 15th September 2008, 08:53 PM

Could the pommel / ebony handle just be later replacement (in the 18th C), perhaps due to damage or refurbishment

. It does seem that the pommel has been there for some time.

Surprised that someone suggested you place your thumb in the 'ring' ....ouch

I also noticed that the 'ring' appears to be heart shaped....is that the case?

Regards David

Paul Macdonald · 15th September 2008, 11:00 PM

Hi Folks,

I agree David that the grip and pommel could well be later replacements, I would suggest late C18th/early C19th.

The pommel detail also has a repeated roped pattern, which does not appear on the quillions anywhere. It would be very common for pommels and quillions on both swords and daggers of the C17th to have matching patterns of some sort.

The rapier pommels do look a bit similar, but the main difference is that pappenheimer pommels of this type typically tend to have concave faces to their form, whereas the late C18th/early C19th urn pommels have convex faces on the main body.

The pommel is very similar to many late C18th or early C19th spadroon or court sword pommels.

All the best,

Macdonald

15th September 2008, 05:48 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Manuel, I like the dagger. I have some reservations, mostly about the ebony grip, but overall it seems like its construction is fairly consistant throughout, medium quality, slightly more elaborate than would be expected. The pommel does appear to be a 18thC style urn pommel, but the more I look at it the more I just wonder if its a bit of a hybrid of 17thC styles? The closest I can find is on a Hungarian executioners sword from about 1620. But there are other swords and daggers from the 17th that do have some similarities to the urn form, this could just be a slightly skewed interpretation of one of those forms made by a medium skilled artisan. (Just an idea) Pappenheimers seem to sometimes have pommels that are more asymetric and 'urn like'.

15th September 2008, 07:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Well placed ideas Atlantia! I like your way of thinking, and the examples you show give plausible cause for consideration. The ebony grip is the key point that I noticed as well, but the piece does have definite character, which is often why I tend to like munition grade items. I agree this is a bit above that guage though.

15th September 2008, 08:53 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Could the pommel / ebony handle just be later replacement (in the 18th C), perhaps due to damage or refurbishment . It does seem that the pommel has been there for some time. Surprised that someone suggested you place your thumb in the 'ring' ....ouch I also noticed that the 'ring' appears to be heart shaped....is that the case? Regards David

15th September 2008, 11:00 PM	#4
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks, I agree David that the grip and pommel could well be later replacements, I would suggest late C18th/early C19th. The pommel detail also has a repeated roped pattern, which does not appear on the quillions anywhere. It would be very common for pommels and quillions on both swords and daggers of the C17th to have matching patterns of some sort. The rapier pommels do look a bit similar, but the main difference is that pappenheimer pommels of this type typically tend to have concave faces to their form, whereas the late C18th/early C19th urn pommels have convex faces on the main body. The pommel is very similar to many late C18th or early C19th spadroon or court sword pommels. All the best, Macdonald