Tactical keris

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2008, 10:13 PM

Art is in the eye of the beholder.

I personally think this is an enormously ugly piece of metal, but having been tied up with the custom knifemaking movement in Australia some years ago, I can understand how some people would consider this to be a wonderful representation of skill.

Western makers who attempt the keris form nearly always get it wrong because they do not understand what they are supposed to achieve. The first keris that I made, I made in Australia, after being involved with keris for better than 25 years, and before I was accepted by Empu Suparman as his pupil.

I did not understand what I was supposed to achieve. I made something that vaguely resembled a keris, but was lacking in many elements.

Here are some pics of what the Sheffield makers Joseph Beal, and Joseph Rogers thought a keris should look like.

None of these things are keris, but knowing they exist helps us to come a little closer to an understanding of just what a keris is.

asomotif · 14th September 2008, 11:25 PM

It has a wonderful pamor pattern in the HANDLE

Newsteel · 15th September 2008, 04:21 AM

That dagger is not attractive at all. What eye sore!!!

Again, how would one define a keris? In another words, what makes keris to be called a keris? By the wavy or straight blade? Or by having pamor or not? Imagine if the dagger is a straight blade, would the maker call it keris? Why don't he put it as keris-like dagger...

sjors · 15th September 2008, 07:26 AM

Believe me, it allways can be worse!

Here's a "9 luk kerissword"

I think its pamor is called "Pamor rust banyak"

It must be a stage prop or something like that because I can't imagine that someone wants this hanging on a wall of a livingroom (but like Alan said: Art is in the eye of the beholder.)

Alam Shah · 15th September 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjors

Believe me, it allways can be worse!

Here's a "9 luk kerissword"

I think its pamor is called "Pamor rust banyak"

It must be a stage prop or something like that because I can't imagine that someone wants this hanging on a wall of a livingroom (but like Alan said: Art is in the eye of the beholder.)

Ouch! my eyes...

Ah yes, also known as "pamor berkarat"

Perhaps...

Jussi M. · 15th September 2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsteel

Again, how would one define a keris? In another words, what makes keris to be called a keris?

I think this is actually a very good question to which, unfortunately, I dont have an answer

We could say - as I have read on other threads - that a keris is whatever a Karaton decides it to be, but what then are the things a keris should have in order to become a keris? - What is the criteria and is that criteria general guidelines (principles), or is it too complex to be be drawn as a set of principles that govern what is a keris and what is not? - I gather there must be some basic principles - otherwise there would be chaos which cannot be.

The "tactical" keris I pictured is, bluntly said, unique on its hideousness (IMO). Not all "keris" like objects however are "bad" though they cannot be seen a proper "kerises". Some stuff actually is pretty neat though it is of course arguable what is neat and what is not. I very much like the aesthetics of this modern variation which, on a way, has some roots to an actual culture that used bladed weapons with such a blade form:

Newsteels´s question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsteel

Again, how would one define a keris? In another words, what makes keris to be called a keris?

...is in my opinion indeed an excellent question which deserves a worthy answer

Best,

J

Rick · 15th September 2008, 03:49 PM

I think this question has been answered .

If we throw out the standards of Jawa I fear keris chaos .

asomotif · 15th September 2008, 04:51 PM

And what about the medieval two handers ? Luk ? lots of Luk

David · 15th September 2008, 06:38 PM

A lot of this discussion seems to focus around the wavy blade. I think that we are all aware that a wavy blade does not make a keris, that in fact most keris have straight blades and that the wavy blade neither began in Jawa nor will end there. European flamboyant swords were not attempting to be keris, they were simply using a wavy blade form. Many knife makers have taken, for what ever reason, to calling all knives with wavy blades a keris. I don't think that necessarily makes them bad knives, just misnamed ones. Also, not all knife makers who make a wavy blade ever intend on it being a keris.
BTW, that's a beautiful butterfy knife (with a wavy blade), Jussi.

14th September 2008, 10:13 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Art is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think this is an enormously ugly piece of metal, but having been tied up with the custom knifemaking movement in Australia some years ago, I can understand how some people would consider this to be a wonderful representation of skill. Western makers who attempt the keris form nearly always get it wrong because they do not understand what they are supposed to achieve. The first keris that I made, I made in Australia, after being involved with keris for better than 25 years, and before I was accepted by Empu Suparman as his pupil. I did not understand what I was supposed to achieve. I made something that vaguely resembled a keris, but was lacking in many elements. Here are some pics of what the Sheffield makers Joseph Beal, and Joseph Rogers thought a keris should look like. None of these things are keris, but knowing they exist helps us to come a little closer to an understanding of just what a keris is. Attached Images

15th September 2008, 07:26 AM	#4
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Believe me, it allways can be worse! Here's a "9 luk kerissword" I think its pamor is called "Pamor rust banyak" It must be a stage prop or something like that because I can't imagine that someone wants this hanging on a wall of a livingroom (but like Alan said: Art is in the eye of the beholder.) Attached Images

15th September 2008, 04:51 PM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	keris swords / medieval ? And what about the medieval two handers ? Luk ? lots of Luk Attached Images

14th September 2008, 11:25 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	It has a wonderful pamor pattern in the HANDLE

15th September 2008, 04:21 AM	#3
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	That dagger is not attractive at all. What eye sore!!! Again, how would one define a keris? In another words, what makes keris to be called a keris? By the wavy or straight blade? Or by having pamor or not? Imagine if the dagger is a straight blade, would the maker call it keris? Why don't he put it as keris-like dagger...

15th September 2008, 03:49 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I think this question has been answered . If we throw out the standards of Jawa I fear keris chaos .

15th September 2008, 06:38 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	A lot of this discussion seems to focus around the wavy blade. I think that we are all aware that a wavy blade does not make a keris, that in fact most keris have straight blades and that the wavy blade neither began in Jawa nor will end there. European flamboyant swords were not attempting to be keris, they were simply using a wavy blade form. Many knife makers have taken, for what ever reason, to calling all knives with wavy blades a keris. I don't think that necessarily makes them bad knives, just misnamed ones. Also, not all knife makers who make a wavy blade ever intend on it being a keris. BTW, that's a beautiful butterfy knife (with a wavy blade), Jussi.