filled wholes on indian sword blades

dralin23 · 14th September 2008, 03:02 PM

hi all...,
thank you josh and jim for your comment. i was also searching in the web, then it is very intresting to find some more informations over "my" swords. i would like understand as much as possible from their history. i found also in the sfi an long thread over these things. some posts in these thread was also from you, josh.
i think like you jim, we can´t say that in the asian culture the reason of decoration from the blades with filled dots as usual is the same. asian is an grat culture with many different cultures and different histories. the background from the seven stars in chinese blades is different to the filled dots in the mandau swords ore also to the indian swords. i know there was many intresting storys at the market but nothing is sure. i think it is possible that the quality is testified with with marking. i missed the opinion from indian specialist( collectors) in this forum. im sure in india lived some peoples who know much over swords, theire making, and also from theire history.

Jim McDougall · 28th September 2008, 08:30 AM

While this may not be directly relevant to an Indian khanda of 17th or 18th century, it seems that a reference I happened upon is worthy of note. In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" (H.R.Ellis Davidson, 1962, p.115) there is reference describing the Al Kindi writing on swords, and referring to the pattern welded Frankish swords of the 9th century and later. It is noted that when the treatment of the blade is completed, some of the blades are marked in the upper part with moons or crosses of bronze or gold.....and sometimes a nail of bronze or gold is hammered into a hole in the blade.

This translated reference in the Ellis Davidson book is from a 1936 work by A. Zeki Velidi, being taken, as noted, from Al Kindi.

Perhaps this very early practice, which seems to have had some sort of quality or talismanic properties, could possibly have reached swordsmiths in India. It has already been established that filled holes in blades is found in a number of regions over considerable periods of time.

While we can only speculate on what this practice might mean, or if there is any connections in it between these varying cultures and over time, it did seem worthy of note here.

All best regards,
Jim

Lee · 29th September 2008, 02:24 PM

I have noticed these holes in a number of Indian blades, usually broad straight blades in Hindu-style basket hilts (which have no tang, being secured by plates over the forte of the blade). The holes are often filled with inconspicuous iron and I have found that they are often in a position suggesting that the blade has been remounted and that these are a residual artifact of the rivet which had secured the replaced mount. Sometimes there are two or more such defects and they are often close and or irregularly spaced. Some of these blades have appeared to be of an age that likely would have known multiple sets of mounts, while in others I have had the suspicion the filled hole came with a new sword in imitation of older blades or to suggest it was an heirloom.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th September 2008, 06:10 PM

Lee, you have a very good point, as some of the better blades were used more than once.
I love the silver decoration you show, is it a Deccan basket hilt?
Jens

Jim McDougall · 30th September 2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I have noticed these holes in a number of Indian blades, usually broad straight blades in Hindu-style basket hilts (which have no tang, being secured by plates over the forte of the blade). The holes are often filled with inconspicuous iron and I have found that they are often in a position suggesting that the blade has been remounted and that these are a residual artifact of the rivet which had secured the replaced mount. Sometimes there are two or more such defects and they are often close and or irregularly spaced. Some of these blades have appeared to be of an age that likely would have known multiple sets of mounts, while in others I have had the suspicion the filled hole came with a new sword in imitation of older blades or to suggest it was an heirloom.

Very well made point Lee! The heirloom idea seems quite plausible, and I have often wondered how many vestigial, apparantly non purpose features have been deliberately placed on blades to suggest vintage.
You know me, I always go for the esoteric!

All the best,
Jim

rand · 1st October 2008, 03:09 AM

Was looking at Shah Jahans dagger after recently reading this thread on holes in swords and found thes when taking a close look.
Shah Jahan 1628-1657
Dagger dates 1629-1630 AD

rand

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2008, 03:10 PM

Hello All,
This may not be exactly what is discussed here, but it does involve a rivet on a blade...

I have seen rivets holding on a portion of wootz near the spine which had broken off due to the seam on the spine causing a weakness (the seam or dark line on the spine of some wootz blades being the top of the ingot which can fold over during forging or may contain poor metals from the melt)...the rivet was also wootz...

Also do not discount the idea that a contrasting metal, filework, fullers or even a carving (horimono on Japanese blades) were used to hide a flaw in the steel...a poor weld or inclusion or a crack from hardening etc.

Ric

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Hello All,
This may not be exactly what is discussed here, but it does involve a rivet on a blade...

I have seen rivets holding on a portion of wootz near the spine which had broken off due to the seam on the spine causing a weakness (the seam or dark line on the spine of some wootz blades being the top of the ingot which can fold over during forging or may contain poor metals from the melt)...the rivet was also wootz...

Also do not discount the idea that a contrasting metal, filework, fullers or even a carving (horimono on Japanese blades) were used to hide a flaw in the steel...a poor weld or inclusion or a crack from hardening etc.

Ric

Thank you so much for responding to this Ric. I was wondering if this practice might have had some structural application as you describe, but it seemed the holes and rivets were too strategically placed to correspond to something as presumably random as a structural flaw. I know next to zippety doo dah about metallurgy

, so really wasnt sure if the idea was valid or not, so thanks for answering it.

All best regards,
Jim

29th September 2008, 02:24 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 970	I have noticed these holes in a number of Indian blades, usually broad straight blades in Hindu-style basket hilts (which have no tang, being secured by plates over the forte of the blade). The holes are often filled with inconspicuous iron and I have found that they are often in a position suggesting that the blade has been remounted and that these are a residual artifact of the rivet which had secured the replaced mount. Sometimes there are two or more such defects and they are often close and or irregularly spaced. Some of these blades have appeared to be of an age that likely would have known multiple sets of mounts, while in others I have had the suspicion the filled hole came with a new sword in imitation of older blades or to suggest it was an heirloom. Attached Images Last edited by Lee; 29th September 2008 at 04:33 PM.

1st October 2008, 03:09 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Holes in Shah Jahans dagger Was looking at Shah Jahans dagger after recently reading this thread on holes in swords and found thes when taking a close look. Shah Jahan 1628-1657 Dagger dates 1629-1630 AD rand Attached Images

14th September 2008, 03:02 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 214	hi all..., thank you josh and jim for your comment. i was also searching in the web, then it is very intresting to find some more informations over "my" swords. i would like understand as much as possible from their history. i found also in the sfi an long thread over these things. some posts in these thread was also from you, josh. i think like you jim, we can´t say that in the asian culture the reason of decoration from the blades with filled dots as usual is the same. asian is an grat culture with many different cultures and different histories. the background from the seven stars in chinese blades is different to the filled dots in the mandau swords ore also to the indian swords. i know there was many intresting storys at the market but nothing is sure. i think it is possible that the quality is testified with with marking. i missed the opinion from indian specialist( collectors) in this forum. im sure in india lived some peoples who know much over swords, theire making, and also from theire history.

28th September 2008, 08:30 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	While this may not be directly relevant to an Indian khanda of 17th or 18th century, it seems that a reference I happened upon is worthy of note. In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" (H.R.Ellis Davidson, 1962, p.115) there is reference describing the Al Kindi writing on swords, and referring to the pattern welded Frankish swords of the 9th century and later. It is noted that when the treatment of the blade is completed, some of the blades are marked in the upper part with moons or crosses of bronze or gold.....and sometimes a nail of bronze or gold is hammered into a hole in the blade. This translated reference in the Ellis Davidson book is from a 1936 work by A. Zeki Velidi, being taken, as noted, from Al Kindi. Perhaps this very early practice, which seems to have had some sort of quality or talismanic properties, could possibly have reached swordsmiths in India. It has already been established that filled holes in blades is found in a number of regions over considerable periods of time. While we can only speculate on what this practice might mean, or if there is any connections in it between these varying cultures and over time, it did seem worthy of note here. All best regards, Jim

29th September 2008, 06:10 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Lee, you have a very good point, as some of the better blades were used more than once. I love the silver decoration you show, is it a Deccan basket hilt? Jens

1st October 2008, 03:10 PM	#7
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Hello All, This may not be exactly what is discussed here, but it does involve a rivet on a blade... I have seen rivets holding on a portion of wootz near the spine which had broken off due to the seam on the spine causing a weakness (the seam or dark line on the spine of some wootz blades being the top of the ingot which can fold over during forging or may contain poor metals from the melt)...the rivet was also wootz... Also do not discount the idea that a contrasting metal, filework, fullers or even a carving (horimono on Japanese blades) were used to hide a flaw in the steel...a poor weld or inclusion or a crack from hardening etc. Ric