Smallsword for comments

Paul Macdonald · 8th September 2008, 05:59 PM

Hi Teodor,

No problem, happy to be of help

The patterns in the grip are those of twisted wire binding. I might suggest that steel wire has formed at least some of the grip pattern wire, as it has indented into the softer brass. The same patterns can be found on originals where the wire has disappeared to leave a wooden core grip.

Looking at the guard from that angle, I might also suggest that it is from a late C19th fencing foil.

Any original C18th smallsword guard usually has something of a slight bowl or dished form to it, which this lacks. It is an identical guard as used by standard salle French fencing foils from the late C19th.

I also noticed an unusual notch in the side of the blade near the guard. Looks like it has been either machined or filed for whatever reason?

Hope the above helps.

Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

Dom · 12th September 2008, 03:17 AM

may be an "épée de cour"

the sword of court is a weapon created in second half of the XVIIe century and used until the any end of the XVIIIe century.
in France, during King time, everybody was having right to enter Versailles,
nobody was allowed to enter Versailles Palace without bearing a sword
for that, it was a business of rented swords at entrance,
and for sure .. not first class weapons

but, it's just an idea

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Smallsword.jpg
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_cour

à +

Dom

TVV · 27th November 2008, 05:56 PM

Here is another one for comments.

The boat shaped hilt is brass(?) and was once gilted. The blade however I do not think is a smallsword one, and I suspect it might have been taken from one of those schlagers popular among German students in the 19th century. Could the hilt be earlier, from a smallsword, or is this simply a fancier schlager?

I have attached some pictures and am looking forward to your comments. I will be gone for the next few days, so please excuse me if I am unable to answer responses to the thread.

Regards,
Teodor

TVV · 1st December 2008, 06:46 PM

I am wondering if I should consider swapping the hilts on the two smallswords in this thread? Unless there is a reason I should both the way they are, I will probably consider doing so, but first I want to get as many opinions as possible.
Thank you,
Teodor

M ELEY · 3rd December 2008, 08:07 AM

Hello Teodor,
The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress.

As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

TVV · 3rd December 2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Teodor,
The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress.

As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

Mark,

Thank you very much. I agree with you that composites are not a good thing. However, I thought that the smallswords I posted in this thread were composites to start with, and so swapping parts would not have changed much.
Now that I know this is not the case for the German smallsword at least, I will be more than happy to leave it as is.

Again, thank you Sir,

Teodor

Paul Macdonald · 5th December 2008, 08:00 PM

The blade on the boat shell smallsword appears to be that of a C19th duelling sabre.

27th November 2008, 05:56 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Here is another one for comments. The boat shaped hilt is brass(?) and was once gilted. The blade however I do not think is a smallsword one, and I suspect it might have been taken from one of those schlagers popular among German students in the 19th century. Could the hilt be earlier, from a smallsword, or is this simply a fancier schlager? I have attached some pictures and am looking forward to your comments. I will be gone for the next few days, so please excuse me if I am unable to answer responses to the thread. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

8th September 2008, 05:59 PM	#1
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Teodor, No problem, happy to be of help The patterns in the grip are those of twisted wire binding. I might suggest that steel wire has formed at least some of the grip pattern wire, as it has indented into the softer brass. The same patterns can be found on originals where the wire has disappeared to leave a wooden core grip. Looking at the guard from that angle, I might also suggest that it is from a late C19th fencing foil. Any original C18th smallsword guard usually has something of a slight bowl or dished form to it, which this lacks. It is an identical guard as used by standard salle French fencing foils from the late C19th. I also noticed an unusual notch in the side of the blade near the guard. Looks like it has been either machined or filed for whatever reason? Hope the above helps. Yours Very Truly, Macdonald

12th September 2008, 03:17 AM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	may be an "épée de cour" the sword of court is a weapon created in second half of the XVIIe century and used until the any end of the XVIIIe century. in France, during King time, everybody was having right to enter Versailles, nobody was allowed to enter Versailles Palace without bearing a sword for that, it was a business of rented swords at entrance, and for sure .. not first class weapons but, it's just an idea http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Smallsword.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_cour à + Dom

1st December 2008, 06:46 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I am wondering if I should consider swapping the hilts on the two smallswords in this thread? Unless there is a reason I should both the way they are, I will probably consider doing so, but first I want to get as many opinions as possible. Thank you, Teodor

3rd December 2008, 08:07 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Teodor, The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress. As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

5th December 2008, 08:00 PM	#7
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	The blade on the boat shell smallsword appears to be that of a C19th duelling sabre.