Smallsword for comments

Paul Macdonald · 8th September 2008, 09:50 AM

Hi Folks!

This is an interesting wee piece and I hope I can shed a bit more light on it.

The blade is certainly an C18th piece and perfectly functional. It is difficult to ascertain much about the guard (any chance of a pic of the butterfly shell guard, lower face?), but proportions and form look original, as does the pommel.

The grip appears to be original, and at one time has had a twisted wire wrapping, most likely steel and/or a combination of brass or copper wire.

I would suggest though that the pas d`ane, ricasso and knucklebow are relatively recent additions.
These do not appear to be cast, but soldered or brazed together from stock round section brass, certainly to replicate the basic form of an original style hilt.

C18th smallswords with brass cast hilts were quite common in England, as they were the simplest and least expensive to make and buy. These can be found from c.1680`s onwards and were popular until the late C18th.
In these examples however, the pas d`ane, knucklebow and ricasso are all one piece and usually with more detail in the casting.

Here are a couple of examples of my own recent manufacture, but cast directly from original hilts in either case -

Another giveaway in this case is the form of the ricasso. For this to be primarily functional, it needs to have flat surfaces for the forefinger and thumb to sit against when gripped for use.

I hope that this is helpful towards identification.

All the best,

Macdonald

TVV · 8th September 2008, 05:37 PM

Paul,

Thank you very much, your explanation makes a ton of sense. The attached picture of the shell guard is the only one I have right now, and I can try to take a better one when I back home later today.

As you can see, it lacks any detail, just like the knuckle bow.

I also agree with you about the missing wire. Would you say that the patterns one sees on the grip are traces of the wire binding?

The pommel is a different color than the rest of the hilt as well, with more reddish hues, perhaps due to more copper in the alloy.

Best regards,

Teodor

Paul Macdonald · 8th September 2008, 05:59 PM

Hi Teodor,

No problem, happy to be of help

The patterns in the grip are those of twisted wire binding. I might suggest that steel wire has formed at least some of the grip pattern wire, as it has indented into the softer brass. The same patterns can be found on originals where the wire has disappeared to leave a wooden core grip.

Looking at the guard from that angle, I might also suggest that it is from a late C19th fencing foil.

Any original C18th smallsword guard usually has something of a slight bowl or dished form to it, which this lacks. It is an identical guard as used by standard salle French fencing foils from the late C19th.

I also noticed an unusual notch in the side of the blade near the guard. Looks like it has been either machined or filed for whatever reason?

Hope the above helps.

Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

Dom · 12th September 2008, 03:17 AM

may be an "épée de cour"

the sword of court is a weapon created in second half of the XVIIe century and used until the any end of the XVIIIe century.
in France, during King time, everybody was having right to enter Versailles,
nobody was allowed to enter Versailles Palace without bearing a sword
for that, it was a business of rented swords at entrance,
and for sure .. not first class weapons

but, it's just an idea

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Smallsword.jpg
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_cour

à +

Dom

TVV · 27th November 2008, 05:56 PM

Here is another one for comments.

The boat shaped hilt is brass(?) and was once gilted. The blade however I do not think is a smallsword one, and I suspect it might have been taken from one of those schlagers popular among German students in the 19th century. Could the hilt be earlier, from a smallsword, or is this simply a fancier schlager?

I have attached some pictures and am looking forward to your comments. I will be gone for the next few days, so please excuse me if I am unable to answer responses to the thread.

Regards,
Teodor

TVV · 1st December 2008, 06:46 PM

I am wondering if I should consider swapping the hilts on the two smallswords in this thread? Unless there is a reason I should both the way they are, I will probably consider doing so, but first I want to get as many opinions as possible.
Thank you,
Teodor

M ELEY · 3rd December 2008, 08:07 AM

Hello Teodor,
The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress.

As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

8th September 2008, 05:37 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,668	Paul, Thank you very much, your explanation makes a ton of sense. The attached picture of the shell guard is the only one I have right now, and I can try to take a better one when I back home later today. As you can see, it lacks any detail, just like the knuckle bow. I also agree with you about the missing wire. Would you say that the patterns one sees on the grip are traces of the wire binding? The pommel is a different color than the rest of the hilt as well, with more reddish hues, perhaps due to more copper in the alloy. Best regards, Teodor Attached Images

27th November 2008, 05:56 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,668	Here is another one for comments. The boat shaped hilt is brass(?) and was once gilted. The blade however I do not think is a smallsword one, and I suspect it might have been taken from one of those schlagers popular among German students in the 19th century. Could the hilt be earlier, from a smallsword, or is this simply a fancier schlager? I have attached some pictures and am looking forward to your comments. I will be gone for the next few days, so please excuse me if I am unable to answer responses to the thread. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

8th September 2008, 09:50 AM	#1
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks! This is an interesting wee piece and I hope I can shed a bit more light on it. The blade is certainly an C18th piece and perfectly functional. It is difficult to ascertain much about the guard (any chance of a pic of the butterfly shell guard, lower face?), but proportions and form look original, as does the pommel. The grip appears to be original, and at one time has had a twisted wire wrapping, most likely steel and/or a combination of brass or copper wire. I would suggest though that the pas d`ane, ricasso and knucklebow are relatively recent additions. These do not appear to be cast, but soldered or brazed together from stock round section brass, certainly to replicate the basic form of an original style hilt. C18th smallswords with brass cast hilts were quite common in England, as they were the simplest and least expensive to make and buy. These can be found from c.1680`s onwards and were popular until the late C18th. In these examples however, the pas d`ane, knucklebow and ricasso are all one piece and usually with more detail in the casting. Here are a couple of examples of my own recent manufacture, but cast directly from original hilts in either case - Another giveaway in this case is the form of the ricasso. For this to be primarily functional, it needs to have flat surfaces for the forefinger and thumb to sit against when gripped for use. I hope that this is helpful towards identification. All the best, Macdonald

8th September 2008, 05:59 PM	#3
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Teodor, No problem, happy to be of help The patterns in the grip are those of twisted wire binding. I might suggest that steel wire has formed at least some of the grip pattern wire, as it has indented into the softer brass. The same patterns can be found on originals where the wire has disappeared to leave a wooden core grip. Looking at the guard from that angle, I might also suggest that it is from a late C19th fencing foil. Any original C18th smallsword guard usually has something of a slight bowl or dished form to it, which this lacks. It is an identical guard as used by standard salle French fencing foils from the late C19th. I also noticed an unusual notch in the side of the blade near the guard. Looks like it has been either machined or filed for whatever reason? Hope the above helps. Yours Very Truly, Macdonald

12th September 2008, 03:17 AM	#4
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	may be an "épée de cour" the sword of court is a weapon created in second half of the XVIIe century and used until the any end of the XVIIIe century. in France, during King time, everybody was having right to enter Versailles, nobody was allowed to enter Versailles Palace without bearing a sword for that, it was a business of rented swords at entrance, and for sure .. not first class weapons but, it's just an idea http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Smallsword.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_cour à + Dom

1st December 2008, 06:46 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,668	I am wondering if I should consider swapping the hilts on the two smallswords in this thread? Unless there is a reason I should both the way they are, I will probably consider doing so, but first I want to get as many opinions as possible. Thank you, Teodor

3rd December 2008, 08:07 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Teodor, The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress. As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.