Melanesian pole club?

fearn · 6th September 2008, 01:29 AM

Well, you've got me scratching my head. Back 100 years ago, the Japanese arts weren't so rigidly systematized, sooo....

I figured that exact dimensions would give a match. Inexact dimensions? Not sure what that means. Reminds me of an aikido teacher who gave a jo (4' staff) seminar. He insisted that the proper height was the height of your heart. My 4' stick was a bit too short, and I noticed it when spinning the stick.

I still need to see a good match from Oceania, though.

F

ausjulius · 6th September 2008, 01:46 AM

hmm i had an old catalouge from an australian ethnic weapons dealer , must have been about 20 years old,, and in it were listed a large array of fijian fighing staffs in octaginal section ,, shown just as yours .. in variang lenths , i belive some may have an a small nob on the grip also dont remember.. focrise , things like native clubs are always mislabled , so they could have just aswell came from any other area in the pacific..

japanese use wood plains.. and so their carving is nice and even as any in europe from the same era,, also they use woods from their locality , none of which are very dense being a temperate zone.. so look at the wood and at the working of it and youll be able to tell......

or ask some japanese wood worker if he kniws the wood..

Tim Simmons · 17th October 2008, 09:26 PM

Getting warmer. Handle end just a little different. Vanuatu sounds cool to me. Still searching.
http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/ob...regno=fe000679

Tim Simmons · 19th October 2008, 03:35 PM

I am not sure how relevant this is but compere the "club" with the spear halft. The other side of the spears is rounded I imagine because the wood on this side is inpregnated with the pithy heart wood as can be seen in the link.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7284

Also there is some relation to the club from the New Zealand museum link in the earlier reply. If you ignore the difference in handle both clubs are truncated pure froms.

VANDOO · 19th October 2008, 07:36 PM

THE END OF THE ITEM HAS THE DARK BANDS I ASSOCIATE WITH A DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP THAT IS NOW MISSING THRU NATURAL DRYING AND DETERIOATION AND BECOMING BRITTLEOVER TIME. THE FIBER WRAP IS SOMETIMES DECORATIVE AND SOMETIMES PLAIN AND SERVES THE FUNCTION OF PROVIDING A GOOD GRIP IN MOST CASES. THIS IS COMMON THRU OUT OCEANIC SOCIETYS SO DOSEN'T HELP PIN IT DOWN MUCH. THE LOOK OF THE WOOD AND THE EVIDENCE OF A WRAP DOES CAUSE ME TO SUSPECT IT IS NOT AFRICAN OR AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL BUT THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN DEDUCE FROM IT.

THE SHAPE IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OR SOMETHING I HAVE NOTICED IN MY REFRENCES. I WOULD HAZZARD A GUESS BASED ON A GUT FEELING THAT IT NOT A CLUB BUT A CHIEFS STAFF OR A SPEAKERS STAFF. BOTH WERE USED THRU OUT POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS AND WERE OFTEN PLAIN WITH NO TIKI DECORATIONS OR SYMBOLIC MARKINGS. THEY WOULD BE MORE RARE THAN WAR CLUBS AS ONLY ONE WOULD BE MADE FOR THE VILLAGE OR IN SOME CASES SEVERAL VILLAGES. THE STAFFS WITH SYMBOLS OR MARKINGS USUALLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH CEREMONIES AND RITUALS AND SHAMAN OR WITCHDOCTORS. THE CHIEFS STAFF WAS A SYMBOL OF THE CHIEFS POWER AND WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE A WEAPON OR BE USED IN CEREMONIES. THE SPEAKERS STAFF WAS OFTEN PLAIN AND USED AT TRIBAL MEETINGS WHERE IMPORTANT THINGS WERE BEING DISCUSSED AND RESOLVED, WHOEVER HELD THE STAFF HAD THE FLOOR AND WAS LISTENED TO BY ALL AT THESE GATHERINGS.
PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING SIMULAR TO YOUR ITEM LOOKING IN REFRENCES UNDER THESE TWO CATAGORYS. NICE STICK WHATEVER IT IS

GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 20th October 2008, 05:10 PM

Barry, your comments are most encouraging. A speakers staff is quite interesting. Having handled some Japanese martial arts kit I am now pretty sure it is not that sort of thing. I feel the similar tapering form of the Vanuatu club may indicate a Melanesian origin. There are many islands in this group and as shown in a previous thread about wooden knives forms vary from each Island. This is also not including other Melanisian Islands.

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2008, 08:52 PM

This is good stuff. I have the book on it's way to me. Scroll to contents and click on "hunting,warfare,and communiction"
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...result#PPP1,M1

17th October 2008, 09:26 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Getting warmer. Handle end just a little different. Vanuatu sounds cool to me. Still searching. http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/ob...regno=fe000679 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 17th October 2008 at 09:44 PM. Reason: spelling

19th October 2008, 03:35 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am not sure how relevant this is but compere the "club" with the spear halft. The other side of the spears is rounded I imagine because the wood on this side is inpregnated with the pithy heart wood as can be seen in the link. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7284 Also there is some relation to the club from the New Zealand museum link in the earlier reply. If you ignore the difference in handle both clubs are truncated pure froms. Attached Images

6th September 2008, 01:29 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Well, you've got me scratching my head. Back 100 years ago, the Japanese arts weren't so rigidly systematized, sooo.... I figured that exact dimensions would give a match. Inexact dimensions? Not sure what that means. Reminds me of an aikido teacher who gave a jo (4' staff) seminar. He insisted that the proper height was the height of your heart. My 4' stick was a bit too short, and I noticed it when spinning the stick. I still need to see a good match from Oceania, though. F

6th September 2008, 01:46 AM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	hmm i had an old catalouge from an australian ethnic weapons dealer , must have been about 20 years old,, and in it were listed a large array of fijian fighing staffs in octaginal section ,, shown just as yours .. in variang lenths , i belive some may have an a small nob on the grip also dont remember.. focrise , things like native clubs are always mislabled , so they could have just aswell came from any other area in the pacific.. japanese use wood plains.. and so their carving is nice and even as any in europe from the same era,, also they use woods from their locality , none of which are very dense being a temperate zone.. so look at the wood and at the working of it and youll be able to tell...... or ask some japanese wood worker if he kniws the wood..

19th October 2008, 07:36 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE END OF THE ITEM HAS THE DARK BANDS I ASSOCIATE WITH A DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP THAT IS NOW MISSING THRU NATURAL DRYING AND DETERIOATION AND BECOMING BRITTLEOVER TIME. THE FIBER WRAP IS SOMETIMES DECORATIVE AND SOMETIMES PLAIN AND SERVES THE FUNCTION OF PROVIDING A GOOD GRIP IN MOST CASES. THIS IS COMMON THRU OUT OCEANIC SOCIETYS SO DOSEN'T HELP PIN IT DOWN MUCH. THE LOOK OF THE WOOD AND THE EVIDENCE OF A WRAP DOES CAUSE ME TO SUSPECT IT IS NOT AFRICAN OR AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL BUT THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN DEDUCE FROM IT. THE SHAPE IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OR SOMETHING I HAVE NOTICED IN MY REFRENCES. I WOULD HAZZARD A GUESS BASED ON A GUT FEELING THAT IT NOT A CLUB BUT A CHIEFS STAFF OR A SPEAKERS STAFF. BOTH WERE USED THRU OUT POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS AND WERE OFTEN PLAIN WITH NO TIKI DECORATIONS OR SYMBOLIC MARKINGS. THEY WOULD BE MORE RARE THAN WAR CLUBS AS ONLY ONE WOULD BE MADE FOR THE VILLAGE OR IN SOME CASES SEVERAL VILLAGES. THE STAFFS WITH SYMBOLS OR MARKINGS USUALLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH CEREMONIES AND RITUALS AND SHAMAN OR WITCHDOCTORS. THE CHIEFS STAFF WAS A SYMBOL OF THE CHIEFS POWER AND WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE A WEAPON OR BE USED IN CEREMONIES. THE SPEAKERS STAFF WAS OFTEN PLAIN AND USED AT TRIBAL MEETINGS WHERE IMPORTANT THINGS WERE BEING DISCUSSED AND RESOLVED, WHOEVER HELD THE STAFF HAD THE FLOOR AND WAS LISTENED TO BY ALL AT THESE GATHERINGS. PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING SIMULAR TO YOUR ITEM LOOKING IN REFRENCES UNDER THESE TWO CATAGORYS. NICE STICK WHATEVER IT IS GOOD LUCK

20th October 2008, 05:10 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Barry, your comments are most encouraging. A speakers staff is quite interesting. Having handled some Japanese martial arts kit I am now pretty sure it is not that sort of thing. I feel the similar tapering form of the Vanuatu club may indicate a Melanesian origin. There are many islands in this group and as shown in a previous thread about wooden knives forms vary from each Island. This is also not including other Melanisian Islands.

22nd October 2008, 08:52 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This is good stuff. I have the book on it's way to me. Scroll to contents and click on "hunting,warfare,and communiction" http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...result#PPP1,M1