Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

Bill has an interesting point ; incorporating pieces of known powerful kerises into a new keris is not unknown in Jawa .
Perhaps this was so with the Moro peoples ..

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .
Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols . What would it take to bust off the tang ?
Hammer and a cold chisel .
You can't use a sword without a handle and you can't carry off all the confiscated stuff on patrol .

Bill, I hope I didn't foul up your post.
I hit edit instead of quote .

[Tim Simmons]

Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

Much of the fighting was done by small groups of Constabulary men on foot patrols that were often quite long .
What to do with the weapons ?

Perhaps there was a psychological motive too; destroying a mans kris, his pride perhaps ?
So .
The kris is fitted with a new tang along with some talismanic symbols to protect its new integrity .

[Tim Simmons]

Rick, the last thing I want is to discuss antique counter insurgency warfare. Saying that and you mentioned foot patrols first, what about the Naga campains. On foot and largely ignored at the time. Very brave people. All this does not help the with phenomenon we see with the hilt repiar syndrome.

[Rick]

Aren't we trying to figure out why it was done ?

I'm not particularly interested in discussing said subject either .
Most of these krisses came out of The Morolands during that time in history .

I am not familiar with the Naga Campaigns Tim .

[VVV]

Interesting theory about adding old metal in the new kris.
I forgot before to mention that the motifs below the copper dots - the cross, the eight-petalled rosette and the double-cross - are all traditional "Folk Islam"- talismanic symbols (based on the number 5 [including the center]) to divert the effect of an opponent's evil eye. The principle is, similar to the old idea about cross-roads, to "disperse the evil energy issuing from the eye to all the quarters of the wind in order to prevent it from injuring the person or object looked at." [Westermarck, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation].

Michael

[kai]

Hello Rick,

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .

The only info on Moro kris regarding this topic (by Cato) suggests that the base area (especially the "arrow" motif if fullers are present) is the "home" of the jin. If I remember correctly, Alan related that the pesi of keris Jawa isn't usually regarded as having special power either.

Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Yes, recycling the metal seems to have been traditionally used in Indonesia and would certainly make sense from a structural point of view...

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols .

I wouldn't emphasize the colonial war by the US too much since I guess that many repairs were already done well before the US involvement: Many repairs are of a quality which I'd estimate to have vanished before the 20th century, possibly already during the Span.-Am. war.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai,
Thanks for correcting my assumptions .
I really don't want to emphasise any war in particular .

The culture has been in conflict with outsiders since the days of Magellan .

What is your opinion on this tang phenomenon ?
Esoteric or functional ?

[kai]

Hello Rick,

What is your opinion on this tang phenomenon ?
Esoteric or functional ?

I'm leaning towards these being tang repairs but keep an open mind.

It would be great to collect more data on these constructions. I'd ask anybody removing the hilt of a kris to take close-ups and measurements of the tang and also pay special attention to modifications done to the gangya. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

[kino]

The other side.

[Tim Simmons]

Great fun. I know weapons do get repaired. I have done so myself quite recently . No seriously I still feel very unsure about so many repairs in the same spot on the same sword form from one location, with other weapons from the same location, where said to be purposely damaged [or not] are undamaged. They are not rubbish weapons we know that. We could all post pictures of this feature?
It would also mean thousands of fallen fighters weapons left broken on the ground simply to be picked up again, then repiared just to be captured again this time not damaged for a second time. Some how we might make sense of it all.

[Spunjer]

very interesting thread...

Again we see this so called hilt repair.

... or perhaps just a certain blacksmith's method of strengthening the tang? what i do find interesting on kino's kris are the decoration found on the asang-asang. somewhat similar to the one i got:

sorry about the yellow tint. bad lighting, lol







and another similar aspect is the so called hilt repair





tim does bring up some interesting points.