Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

kai · 2nd September 2008, 08:16 AM

Hello Albert,

Congrats, that's a very nice piece again!

Quote:

Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values.

I believe that hardly anything in any SE Asian culture can be legimately called "random" in a western sense: Just about anything has a meaning to begin with (or, more rarely, gets one assigned/changed by its owner) - with weapons usually in the realm of what we refer to as talismanic. The only exception I can think of may be repairs (i.e. dots added later to repair a hairline crack and even then any non-iron metal would also get talimanic properties assigned to it) - but your dots seem to be spaced too regularly to begin with. Also, any pure repair of a sandwich construction would only need to be done to the layer actually affected - not going through all 3 layers!

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 2nd September 2008, 08:31 AM

I agree with Kai that the dots are talismanic. I wonder what the meaning could be?

I've seen them before on kris. My own Maguindanao kris whose avatar I use has 4 silver dots, but have no idea why other than talismanic. Must be something in adat or Muslim folklore......

VVV · 2nd September 2008, 09:53 AM

Interesting piece, congratulations!
I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what.
Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case:

- Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade.
- Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the
most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc.

Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area.

Michael

Atlantia · 2nd September 2008, 02:00 PM

Lovely sword by the way Kino,
Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

kino · 3rd September 2008, 02:10 AM

A lot of good theories. Thanks.

Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade.

Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper.

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang.

VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible.

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.
Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

Battara · 3rd September 2008, 02:42 PM

Good point Kino. Did not see the repair. Also, I see the dots closer now and they are in the form of an okir moon according to Saber and Orellana (circles symbolize the moon). Perhaps the power of 4 moons rising?

Maguindanao and Maranao piece often have a base metal covered by a top layer of a precious metal. I would say Maguindanao in this case. Rare to have this on a baka-baka and it being filigree at that.

Bill · 3rd September 2008, 08:07 PM

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

kai · 4th September 2008, 01:30 AM

Hello Albert,

Quote:

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it in this case - just mentioning possibilities in general.

Quote:

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.

With one of the dots on the gangya, I don't see how this might have been supposed to work. A master bladesmith should be able to (re-)apply a Jin when finishing the repair work; I'd guess that there were rituals to house the Jin elsewhere while working on a blade, too.

Quote:

Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

We'll probably never know. However, I'd guess the dots were part of the original talismanic design.

Regards,
Kai

3rd September 2008, 02:10 AM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,019	A lot of good theories. Thanks. Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade. Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper. Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang. VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible. Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping. Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots??? Attached Images

3rd September 2008, 08:07 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation. The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status. Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade. That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements. Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say? Last edited by Rick; 3rd September 2008 at 08:26 PM.

2nd September 2008, 08:31 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	I agree with Kai that the dots are talismanic. I wonder what the meaning could be? I've seen them before on kris. My own Maguindanao kris whose avatar I use has 4 silver dots, but have no idea why other than talismanic. Must be something in adat or Muslim folklore......

2nd September 2008, 09:53 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting piece, congratulations! I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what. Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case: - Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade. - Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc. Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area. Michael

2nd September 2008, 02:00 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Lovely sword by the way Kino, Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

3rd September 2008, 02:42 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Good point Kino. Did not see the repair. Also, I see the dots closer now and they are in the form of an okir moon according to Saber and Orellana (circles symbolize the moon). Perhaps the power of 4 moons rising? Maguindanao and Maranao piece often have a base metal covered by a top layer of a precious metal. I would say Maguindanao in this case. Rare to have this on a baka-baka and it being filigree at that.