Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?

VVV · 28th August 2008, 06:01 PM

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

Marcokeris · 28th August 2008, 09:06 PM

IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this

(maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

VVV · 28th August 2008, 09:30 PM

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak

Michael

Marcokeris · 28th August 2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak

Michael

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother

Marcokeris · 30th August 2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother

...of course the blade is beautiful (but i didn't have any doubts)

VVV · 30th August 2008, 06:39 PM

Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

Lew · 30th August 2008, 07:07 PM

Hi Guys

Here is a similar one to Michael's keris.

Lew

Marcokeris · 31st August 2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

No Michael, but i found it in Bali (Kerobokan area) one year ago.
In Balì is rather easy to find all kind of indonesian handles (but bronze from Banjarmasin is very difficult to see) )because the island is full of antik shops ... but also full of buyers!
I think Ganja is right when says that around Cirebon some handles have the same Garuda Sumatra pattern (many times other indonesian people said me the same ) .

David · 28th August 2008, 10:00 PM

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

VVV · 28th August 2008, 10:56 PM

Look forward to your pictures, Marco.
I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C.

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Michael

David · 29th August 2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Well yes, we do all know what you mean. Still, there is a habit within the keris community to just use Javanese terms regardless of the origin of the keris which i think in the end is not the best idea. Often just an English word will suffice (ie. sheath for wrongko or sarong), but some part require more specific terms. I ask this question in the hopes of expanding our knowledge base. We all know what you mean using mendak here, but i must assume that there is a proper name for this part and i suspect that someone out there knows it. Just because we understand each other doesn't mean we should not strive for correctness.

That being said ....what a beautiful keris you have on the other side of that "mendak"!

Marcokeris · 31st August 2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

Sorry mr. David but mr. K.Jensen in the actual Krisdisk calls mendak many sumatran (and Sulawesi) rings with the same motif.

VVV · 31st August 2008, 10:35 PM

That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra?

Michael

David · 31st August 2008, 11:29 PM

[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE]
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"?

Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers.

PenangsangII · 29th August 2008, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

I dont believe that there is a fixed pakem for non-Jawanese hilts, but generally speaking the hilts are identifyable whether it is pipit teleng, patah tiga, kerdas, penghulu etc etc. IMHO, your hilt is stylized from palembang's balu mekabun.

VVV · 29th August 2008, 08:03 AM

Thanks Penangsang,

Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible.

Michael

PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version.

PenangsangII · 29th August 2008, 11:10 AM

I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

BluErf · 29th August 2008, 07:21 PM

A masterpiece. All parts of it!

Congratulations, Michael.

For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.

PenangsangII · 30th August 2008, 05:43 AM

If it wasnt for the fretworks on the ganja and the ricikan at the dandik & sorsoran, I would have thought the blade was a pandai saras......

30th August 2008, 07:07 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys Here is a similar one to Michael's keris. Lew Attached Images

28th August 2008, 10:56 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Look forward to your pictures, Marco. I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C. David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean... Here is the blade. Michael Attached Images

29th August 2008, 08:03 AM	#16
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Penangsang, Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible. Michael PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 29th August 2008 at 10:05 AM. Reason: added pictures

28th August 2008, 06:01 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maybe "nem neman". But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts? Michael

28th August 2008, 09:06 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this (maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

28th August 2008, 09:30 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Marco, Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago. I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here? But I am glad you like the mendak Michael

30th August 2008, 06:39 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...) Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother. Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays? Michael

28th August 2008, 10:00 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,256	It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade. Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

31st August 2008, 10:35 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? Michael

31st August 2008, 11:29 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,256	[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE] But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers.

29th August 2008, 11:10 AM	#17
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

29th August 2008, 07:21 PM	#18
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A masterpiece. All parts of it! Congratulations, Michael. For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.

30th August 2008, 05:43 AM	#19
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	If it wasnt for the fretworks on the ganja and the ricikan at the dandik & sorsoran, I would have thought the blade was a pandai saras......