Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?

asomotif · 27th August 2008, 10:11 PM

Quote:

nice sumatran hilt ....but mendak ...is more nice

I am afraid the whole keris is a nice one

The hilt is in a pretty upright position indeed.
And the arm wrapped around the body.
Very nice hilt, but indeed a bit odd for a Jawa deman style.

If you want to part with it, just send me a PM

PenangsangII · 28th August 2008, 03:31 AM

maybe this hilt can be called hulu nem neman, carved by an artist with a free mind, thus not restricted to pakem hulu. Just a thought....

VVV · 28th August 2008, 05:01 PM

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

Marcokeris · 28th August 2008, 08:06 PM

IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this

(maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

VVV · 28th August 2008, 08:30 PM

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak

Michael

Marcokeris · 28th August 2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak

Michael

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother

Marcokeris · 30th August 2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother

...of course the blade is beautiful (but i didn't have any doubts)

David · 28th August 2008, 09:00 PM

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

VVV · 28th August 2008, 09:56 PM

Look forward to your pictures, Marco.
I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C.

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Michael

Marcokeris · 31st August 2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

Sorry mr. David but mr. K.Jensen in the actual Krisdisk calls mendak many sumatran (and Sulawesi) rings with the same motif.

PenangsangII · 29th August 2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

I dont believe that there is a fixed pakem for non-Jawanese hilts, but generally speaking the hilts are identifyable whether it is pipit teleng, patah tiga, kerdas, penghulu etc etc. IMHO, your hilt is stylized from palembang's balu mekabun.

VVV · 29th August 2008, 07:03 AM

Thanks Penangsang,

Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible.

Michael

PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version.

PenangsangII · 29th August 2008, 10:10 AM

I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

BluErf · 29th August 2008, 06:21 PM

A masterpiece. All parts of it!

Congratulations, Michael.

For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.

28th August 2008, 09:56 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Look forward to your pictures, Marco. I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C. David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean... Here is the blade. Michael Attached Images

29th August 2008, 07:03 AM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Penangsang, Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible. Michael PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 29th August 2008 at 09:05 AM. Reason: added pictures

28th August 2008, 03:31 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	maybe this hilt can be called hulu nem neman, carved by an artist with a free mind, thus not restricted to pakem hulu. Just a thought....

28th August 2008, 05:01 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maybe "nem neman". But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts? Michael

28th August 2008, 08:06 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this (maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

28th August 2008, 08:30 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Marco, Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago. I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here? But I am glad you like the mendak Michael

28th August 2008, 09:00 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade. Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

29th August 2008, 10:10 AM	#13
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

29th August 2008, 06:21 PM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A masterpiece. All parts of it! Congratulations, Michael. For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.