"tears of the wounded" swords...

Queequeg · 25th August 2008, 07:44 AM

chevalier,

The popular explanation is that, like the "steel apples" on European blades, the balls add a bit of momentum via centrifugal force by sliding forward during a swing.

More about these:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...hlight=chevron

Apparently there is debate on whether or not these balls actually serve a practical or decorative purpose.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted

Hope this helps in some way.

ariel · 25th August 2008, 11:37 AM

I guess that the mechanical purpose would only be fulfilled if the cut-outs went almost all the way to the point and the balls were of a substantial weight. A little jiggling at the ricasso would not be effective. I remember some quaddaras with a thin string going along the 3-5 inch long slit in the middle of the blade and tiny plastic( coral?) beads on it. Obviously decorative.

Pukka Bundook · 25th August 2008, 03:22 PM

Jens knows more about this than I ever will, but i'd say decorative,...just to show what can be done by a clever fellow making a blade.

Now, if it's Momentum you want, a small hole drilled in the blade near the tip, with a short chain, and a lump of lead attached............(!)
(but wouldn't it play havoc with the handling?!)

Lew · 25th August 2008, 04:31 PM

I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2008, 06:44 PM

This is truly a fascinating topic, and it has developed some great discussions over the years. Jens does indeed have the key knowledge on this somewhat mysterious feature, but pending his notes I wanted to say what I can recall.

This feature is of course entirely decorative, and Philip Tom suggested that the open channels holding these 'pearls' or bearings would ultimately compromise the integrity of the blade, therefore noted that these swords were probably parade or ceremonial in purpose.

The sound making effect is also likely associated with jingles and rattles as often seen in the votive weapons of temples and associated with religious ceremony, particularly in Buddhist and Hindu tradition. The pierced fretwork on the blade supports of Hindu khandas and firangi may represent the holes that were often on ceremonial weapons to attach jingles and various festoons also important as protection from evil and demons during these proceedings.

I recall some research years ago concerning a weight and sliding ball allegedly being part of a huge claymore acting to enhance the force of cut on the weapon. This clearly romanticized notion I found had appeared in some other 'heroic' literature, but research and discussions revealed no useful purpose for such a feature , in fact seemed quite the contrary, with a sliding weight most likely to pull the sword right out of the wielders hands. I think my first clue should have been the writers description of the weight being of ten pounds! on a claymore that would have been ludicrous!
While I found some reference to 'steel apples' on European blades (I believe that term and description was in a book on the Bowie knife, and fell along with the use of meteoric iron in fashioning 'the Iron Mistress') I have not ever discovered supported evidence of blades with sliding weights. This mysterious concept even appeared in the bizarre case of the 'Hollow Sword Company' where these blades allegedly contained mercury intended to move in the direction of the cut, within the blade for ostensibly the same purpose.

The closely connected spheres of Persia, India and China are the only soundly repesented instances I found of this feature, and its purpose seems to have been primarily apotropaic followed by traditional symbolism.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks.

Lew

Psychological warfare was used far more than realized by many. The same whistling concept was found in India, where tribesmen notched thier bullets to achieve the same effect. Arrows were often altered to also accomplish the fearsome sounds that weakened the resolve of the enemy.

Concerning the sounds of battle, I think the most resounding descriptions I have ever seen were in Keegan's "The Face of Battle". In this,describing Waterloo, and the horrendous carnage of this epic battle,it notes the constant din of bullets clanging against armor cuirasses, sword blades and helmets against so many other sounds that would accompany the clash of thousands of combatants fighting to the death.

25th August 2008, 07:44 AM	#1
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	chevalier, The popular explanation is that, like the "steel apples" on European blades, the balls add a bit of momentum via centrifugal force by sliding forward during a swing. More about these: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...hlight=chevron Apparently there is debate on whether or not these balls actually serve a practical or decorative purpose. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=afflicted Hope this helps in some way.

25th August 2008, 11:37 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess that the mechanical purpose would only be fulfilled if the cut-outs went almost all the way to the point and the balls were of a substantial weight. A little jiggling at the ricasso would not be effective. I remember some quaddaras with a thin string going along the 3-5 inch long slit in the middle of the blade and tiny plastic( coral?) beads on it. Obviously decorative.

25th August 2008, 03:22 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens knows more about this than I ever will, but i'd say decorative,...just to show what can be done by a clever fellow making a blade. Now, if it's Momentum you want, a small hole drilled in the blade near the tip, with a short chain, and a lump of lead attached............(!) (but wouldn't it play havoc with the handling?!)

25th August 2008, 04:31 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think it was mostly hype in the heat of battle with hundreds of swords and shields clanging about I doubt you would be able to hear the sound of the sword. I did see an example of a Roman spear head that had a hole purposely punched through it so when thrown it would make a whistling sound that would strike fear in the enemy ranks. Lew

25th August 2008, 06:44 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is truly a fascinating topic, and it has developed some great discussions over the years. Jens does indeed have the key knowledge on this somewhat mysterious feature, but pending his notes I wanted to say what I can recall. This feature is of course entirely decorative, and Philip Tom suggested that the open channels holding these 'pearls' or bearings would ultimately compromise the integrity of the blade, therefore noted that these swords were probably parade or ceremonial in purpose. The sound making effect is also likely associated with jingles and rattles as often seen in the votive weapons of temples and associated with religious ceremony, particularly in Buddhist and Hindu tradition. The pierced fretwork on the blade supports of Hindu khandas and firangi may represent the holes that were often on ceremonial weapons to attach jingles and various festoons also important as protection from evil and demons during these proceedings. I recall some research years ago concerning a weight and sliding ball allegedly being part of a huge claymore acting to enhance the force of cut on the weapon. This clearly romanticized notion I found had appeared in some other 'heroic' literature, but research and discussions revealed no useful purpose for such a feature , in fact seemed quite the contrary, with a sliding weight most likely to pull the sword right out of the wielders hands. I think my first clue should have been the writers description of the weight being of ten pounds! on a claymore that would have been ludicrous! While I found some reference to 'steel apples' on European blades (I believe that term and description was in a book on the Bowie knife, and fell along with the use of meteoric iron in fashioning 'the Iron Mistress') I have not ever discovered supported evidence of blades with sliding weights. This mysterious concept even appeared in the bizarre case of the 'Hollow Sword Company' where these blades allegedly contained mercury intended to move in the direction of the cut, within the blade for ostensibly the same purpose. The closely connected spheres of Persia, India and China are the only soundly repesented instances I found of this feature, and its purpose seems to have been primarily apotropaic followed by traditional symbolism.