Fighting Irons

Queequeg · 24th August 2008, 11:45 AM

Andrew,

I was just looking at this again, and what would you think about something like a two-sectioned staff, but with a bit shorter handle though still longer than the "flail" end? Does something like that exist (popularly)?

katana · 14th July 2010, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queequeg

I was just looking at this again, and what would you think about something like a two-sectioned staff, but with a bit shorter handle though still longer than the "flail" end? Does something like that exist (popularly)?

Queequeg,
the item shown is commonly refered to as a rice flail....but I believe a 'millitarised' version was used from the Han Dynasty. It seems that the 'sections' could be wood or iron ( likely just the shorter section, as many of these had the longer 'section' up to lengths of 8 foot ) The shorter 'business' end could be adorned with studs or spikes

and were used by both infantry and cavalry.

Regards David

Billman · 20th December 2010, 08:49 AM

Vandoo - your tool looks like an Italian roncole or billhook or possibly a serpe from Provence (Var region) in France - the Alpine region of Europe is the only region that regularly provides a hand guard of this type... then I saw the Aruval from southern India....

However, all the aruval I have seen appear to be curved, but French and Italian billhooks are made with squarer blades....

One by Ughetti (Aixe en Provence, France) and one from the Piemont of Italy showing the hand guard, often forged into the handle stem when rivetted scales are used, or part of the end washer when leather rings are placed on a through tang..

Montino Bourbon · 20th December 2010, 04:16 PM

To my mind, the kau sin ke posted by Andrew is the most pertinent example of a fighting iron. if I remember correctly, they go to the place where they're supposed to fight holding the fighting Irons, then let them fall out of their hands while holding the handle; this to me implies a jointed weapon. In China, jointed, chained, and roped weapons are well known. The three section staff is the one with the least sections, then there are 5 section, nine section, chained whips, all the way to the meteor hammer which uses a weight attached to a rope.
There is a Chinese farmer's tool that resembles a billhook; the protruding point is so that when splitting wood, the blade does not strike the ground and get dull. A typical example of this is the French one by Ughetti. the very tip is squarish, and made so that you can split wood right on the ground. Very often farm tools can be used as weapons, and a prime example is a staff with a short section attached by a chain, which started off as a flail for threshing grain; this is the one illustrated by Katana. The fighting iron to which Clavell refers is, I believe, the one that Andrew has shown.

Billman · 20th December 2010, 10:59 PM

You mean this one, from China at Work by Hommel, also one from the Anglo Scandinavian (Viking??) era found in the UK....

KuKulzA28 · 21st December 2010, 01:21 AM

I have to saw, thus far this thread has brought to light a lot of cool weapons/tools so thanks for everyone involved in the discussion! The nine-section chain or fighting iron must've been one frightening weapon!

tpkaplan · 29th October 2015, 04:23 AM

The posters appear to have settled on a tentative consensus that the fighting iron in Clavell's novel, "Tai-Pan" was probably similar to the kau-sin-kee depicted in Andrew's post.

I wanted to add to the conversation. James Clavell spent several years in Hong Kong in the 1950s. Contrary to one of the speculations posted, it is clear from the extensive descriptions that he was describing a weapon he was familiar with. Presumably he either saw one himself or it was described to him by someone familiar with it.

While the kau-sin-kee conforms to many of the passages in the book, it appears to be slightly different in some respects. Most saliently, Clavell's fighting iron is attached to the wrist with a leather thong. It also had a barbed iron ball at the end.

In his first mention of the fighting iron, Clavell describes it as follows:

"Struan picked up the fighting iron and swung it aimlessly. It was a linked iron whip, a deadly weapon at close range -- three foot-long iron shafts linked together, and at the very end, a barbed iron ball. The short iron haft fitted neatly into the hand, and a protective leather thong slipped over the wrist."

The thong is mentioned throughout the book. "The fighting iron was thonged to his wrist" ..."Since the bullion came aboard the ship, he had worn the fighting iron day and night". ... "He unthonged the fighting iron".

While the kau-sin-kee shown in the picture does have three foot-long iron shafts linked together, the haft does not appear as if it were designed to be thonged, and there is no barbed ball at the end. Since your community is so knowledgeable about historical weapons, I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone could find any other examples that more closely fit the description of the weapon described in the book.

20th December 2010, 08:49 AM	#3
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Vandoo - your tool looks like an Italian roncole or billhook or possibly a serpe from Provence (Var region) in France - the Alpine region of Europe is the only region that regularly provides a hand guard of this type... then I saw the Aruval from southern India.... However, all the aruval I have seen appear to be curved, but French and Italian billhooks are made with squarer blades.... One by Ughetti (Aixe en Provence, France) and one from the Piemont of Italy showing the hand guard, often forged into the handle stem when rivetted scales are used, or part of the end washer when leather rings are placed on a through tang.. Attached Images

20th December 2010, 10:59 PM	#5
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	You mean this one, from China at Work by Hommel, also one from the Anglo Scandinavian (Viking??) era found in the UK.... Attached Images

29th October 2015, 04:23 AM	#7
tpkaplan Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1	Description of Struan's "Fighting Iron" The posters appear to have settled on a tentative consensus that the fighting iron in Clavell's novel, "Tai-Pan" was probably similar to the kau-sin-kee depicted in Andrew's post. I wanted to add to the conversation. James Clavell spent several years in Hong Kong in the 1950s. Contrary to one of the speculations posted, it is clear from the extensive descriptions that he was describing a weapon he was familiar with. Presumably he either saw one himself or it was described to him by someone familiar with it. While the kau-sin-kee conforms to many of the passages in the book, it appears to be slightly different in some respects. Most saliently, Clavell's fighting iron is attached to the wrist with a leather thong. It also had a barbed iron ball at the end. In his first mention of the fighting iron, Clavell describes it as follows: "Struan picked up the fighting iron and swung it aimlessly. It was a linked iron whip, a deadly weapon at close range -- three foot-long iron shafts linked together, and at the very end, a barbed iron ball. The short iron haft fitted neatly into the hand, and a protective leather thong slipped over the wrist." The thong is mentioned throughout the book. "The fighting iron was thonged to his wrist" ..."Since the bullion came aboard the ship, he had worn the fighting iron day and night". ... "He unthonged the fighting iron". While the kau-sin-kee shown in the picture does have three foot-long iron shafts linked together, the haft does not appear as if it were designed to be thonged, and there is no barbed ball at the end. Since your community is so knowledgeable about historical weapons, I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone could find any other examples that more closely fit the description of the weapon described in the book.

24th August 2008, 11:45 AM	#1
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Andrew, I was just looking at this again, and what would you think about something like a two-sectioned staff, but with a bit shorter handle though still longer than the "flail" end? Does something like that exist (popularly)?

20th December 2010, 04:16 PM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	To my mind, the kau sin ke posted by Andrew is the most pertinent example of a fighting iron. if I remember correctly, they go to the place where they're supposed to fight holding the fighting Irons, then let them fall out of their hands while holding the handle; this to me implies a jointed weapon. In China, jointed, chained, and roped weapons are well known. The three section staff is the one with the least sections, then there are 5 section, nine section, chained whips, all the way to the meteor hammer which uses a weight attached to a rope. There is a Chinese farmer's tool that resembles a billhook; the protruding point is so that when splitting wood, the blade does not strike the ground and get dull. A typical example of this is the French one by Ughetti. the very tip is squarish, and made so that you can split wood right on the ground. Very often farm tools can be used as weapons, and a prime example is a staff with a short section attached by a chain, which started off as a flail for threshing grain; this is the one illustrated by Katana. The fighting iron to which Clavell refers is, I believe, the one that Andrew has shown.

21st December 2010, 01:21 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I have to saw, thus far this thread has brought to light a lot of cool weapons/tools so thanks for everyone involved in the discussion! The nine-section chain or fighting iron must've been one frightening weapon!