Sword from Lombok -- comments please

BluErf · 2nd April 2005, 11:53 PM

Could it be a keris pedang? It has a picetan at the base. Maybe it lost its ganja, and someone redressed it with modern-style fittings.

Conogre · 3rd April 2005, 04:46 AM

Hopefully I'm not clouding the issue here, but here's a keris I just got last week from Justin and I freely admit that keris are my weakest point in all of the PI/Indo/Malay weapons, likewise my least favorite.
This one, on the other hand, feels like a real weapon, with a blade that's decidedly non-pamor in relation to other kerises that I've had and seen, including some truly magnificent specimens of Mick's, and likewise has the deep grooving as in Ian's piece and many Philippine war kris.
Following the train of thought that seems to be developing, then this is likely a Lombok piece and the type that is being mentioned as possibly being what Ian's started as?

BluErf · 3rd April 2005, 04:25 PM

This is a keris panjang (literally "long keris"). It is not a weapon of war. Rather, it is a symbol of authority of Malay/Sumatran rulers. As you may have heard, keris panjang is sometimes used to execute people, by way of piecing the heart, top-down, through the shoulder clavicle.

The keris panjang I've seen are usually from the Malay or Sumatran areas. Yours is most likely sumatran, judging from the greneng. I have never seen a Javanese/Balinese/Lombok keris panjang yet.

nechesh · 3rd April 2005, 04:27 PM

Mike, that looks like a keris panjang, sometimes referred to as an executioners keris and my guess would be for a Sumatran origin. The pics are a bit dark on my screen, but this looks like it might be a 20thC example.

nechesh · 3rd April 2005, 04:30 PM

looks like Kai Wee and i were posting at the same time. Nice to see we are in agreement.

Conogre · 3rd April 2005, 05:26 PM

In this case I'm 100% the student and you gentlemen are demonstrating EXACTLY why.
Normally, I have a fairly discerning eye when it comes to detail and right after I posted the photos of my newest aquisition I was struck by the similarity of the "ferule" (sorry guys, no offense intended **grin**) which is once again unlike anything that I've previously seen on a keris, and after reading Ian's comments about his, it dawned on me that the metal also doesn't appear to be normal brass/bronze, so I'll get it checked as well.
I have no trouble accepting everything that you said about this one of mine although with its comparatively thick central ridge, it's the only keris I've ever seen that I WOULD feel secure in slashing with, ie like a real weapon, without fearing that the 20" blade would break (exactly the reason I got it! **grin"")
Age-wise, my own personal feeling is that this one is probably 1930'-1940's, with the wood matching the blade, pamor-wise....... thank you for the information, by the way, as it all fits exactly with what I was told about it.
Here's some better photos of the blade, by the way, taken in shaded daylight instead of midnight 100w incandescent .
With that said, I'll go back to being the observer on this one and hopefuly eliminate some of my confusion.
I now return control of your PC monitor.....uh, wait...that's the Outer Limits! Sorry. **grin**
Mike

nechesh · 3rd April 2005, 05:45 PM

Hi Mike. Thanks for the better pics. It's a nice blade, but i wouldn't attempt slashing with it. It has nothing to due with the strength of the blade, but the tang (pesi) and the way the hilt attaches to it. A good slash would be very likely to bend or perhaps even break that tang right off. Indonesian keris were definitely designed as stabbers, not slashers.

Conogre · 3rd April 2005, 06:32 PM

Thank you for the advice, and yes I remember reading about the short tangs on keris.
While I DO experiment with some of my pieces, the keris are strictly for display and enjoyment.
Some of the klewangs HAVE been used to clear exuberantly growing tropical Florida foliage on occasion, which has only served to make me admire their function when compared to modern machetes, for example.
One last question, if I may......the ferule on this executioner's keris appears overlarge for the wooden hilt and I notice the same characteristic on Ian's Lombok piece, almost as if sitting on a plate as opposed to the more normal tight fit on a "regular" keris, while both appear to be original to the entire weapon as evidenced from the very nice fit into the throat of the sheath.
Is this typical to any long bladed keris and/or sword from both locations?
As I said, I have NO real knowldege of either area and yet these similarities seem to leap out to my eye, particularly as there is a vast disparity between quality/status and origin of both in regards to Indonesian weapons in general.
Mike

3rd April 2005, 04:46 AM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Hopefully I'm not clouding the issue here, but here's a keris I just got last week from Justin and I freely admit that keris are my weakest point in all of the PI/Indo/Malay weapons, likewise my least favorite. This one, on the other hand, feels like a real weapon, with a blade that's decidedly non-pamor in relation to other kerises that I've had and seen, including some truly magnificent specimens of Mick's, and likewise has the deep grooving as in Ian's piece and many Philippine war kris. Following the train of thought that seems to be developing, then this is likely a Lombok piece and the type that is being mentioned as possibly being what Ian's started as? Attached Images

3rd April 2005, 05:26 PM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	In this case I'm 100% the student and you gentlemen are demonstrating EXACTLY why. Normally, I have a fairly discerning eye when it comes to detail and right after I posted the photos of my newest aquisition I was struck by the similarity of the "ferule" (sorry guys, no offense intended grin) which is once again unlike anything that I've previously seen on a keris, and after reading Ian's comments about his, it dawned on me that the metal also doesn't appear to be normal brass/bronze, so I'll get it checked as well. I have no trouble accepting everything that you said about this one of mine although with its comparatively thick central ridge, it's the only keris I've ever seen that I WOULD feel secure in slashing with, ie like a real weapon, without fearing that the 20" blade would break (exactly the reason I got it! grin"") Age-wise, my own personal feeling is that this one is probably 1930'-1940's, with the wood matching the blade, pamor-wise....... thank you for the information, by the way, as it all fits exactly with what I was told about it. Here's some better photos of the blade, by the way, taken in shaded daylight instead of midnight 100w incandescent . With that said, I'll go back to being the observer on this one and hopefuly eliminate some of my confusion. I now return control of your PC monitor.....uh, wait...that's the Outer Limits! Sorry. grin** Mike Attached Images

2nd April 2005, 11:53 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Could it be a keris pedang? It has a picetan at the base. Maybe it lost its ganja, and someone redressed it with modern-style fittings.

3rd April 2005, 04:25 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	This is a keris panjang (literally "long keris"). It is not a weapon of war. Rather, it is a symbol of authority of Malay/Sumatran rulers. As you may have heard, keris panjang is sometimes used to execute people, by way of piecing the heart, top-down, through the shoulder clavicle. The keris panjang I've seen are usually from the Malay or Sumatran areas. Yours is most likely sumatran, judging from the greneng. I have never seen a Javanese/Balinese/Lombok keris panjang yet.

3rd April 2005, 04:27 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mike, that looks like a keris panjang, sometimes referred to as an executioners keris and my guess would be for a Sumatran origin. The pics are a bit dark on my screen, but this looks like it might be a 20thC example.

3rd April 2005, 04:30 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	looks like Kai Wee and i were posting at the same time. Nice to see we are in agreement.

3rd April 2005, 05:45 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Mike. Thanks for the better pics. It's a nice blade, but i wouldn't attempt slashing with it. It has nothing to due with the strength of the blade, but the tang (pesi) and the way the hilt attaches to it. A good slash would be very likely to bend or perhaps even break that tang right off. Indonesian keris were definitely designed as stabbers, not slashers.

3rd April 2005, 06:32 PM	#8
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you for the advice, and yes I remember reading about the short tangs on keris. While I DO experiment with some of my pieces, the keris are strictly for display and enjoyment. Some of the klewangs HAVE been used to clear exuberantly growing tropical Florida foliage on occasion, which has only served to make me admire their function when compared to modern machetes, for example. One last question, if I may......the ferule on this executioner's keris appears overlarge for the wooden hilt and I notice the same characteristic on Ian's Lombok piece, almost as if sitting on a plate as opposed to the more normal tight fit on a "regular" keris, while both appear to be original to the entire weapon as evidenced from the very nice fit into the throat of the sheath. Is this typical to any long bladed keris and/or sword from both locations? As I said, I have NO real knowldege of either area and yet these similarities seem to leap out to my eye, particularly as there is a vast disparity between quality/status and origin of both in regards to Indonesian weapons in general. Mike