Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

katana · 4th August 2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

Thanks Ward for putting it into context, obviously tribal Africans are also in the same boat. With India's rapid industrial growth in recent years its easy to forget that for a section of the population there is still poverty.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2008, 06:04 PM

In the description of the industrious endeavors of the locals in India recycling various components, it would seem that such crafting would be reduced to mindless commercialism.

It seems in the weaponry of India, there are all manner of examples that elude comprehension of thier practical use, many with multiple blades, odd shapes, bizarre features and so on. Without deeper understanding of the traditional features and often symbolism of weapons associated with ceremonial events as well as martial applications, it is often difficult to transliterate functionality into western perspective.

This dagger is, as agreed, a married piece, using a sword hilt that would seem incongruous to the traditional means of using a dagger, however Davids suggestion (using the western term main gauche descriptively) would seem to indicate possible imitation of western swordsmanship. Although we know that as the Portuguese presence in Malabar became emplaced, thier weapons influenced the Indian forms markedly. The baskethilt developed, mounted as 'firangi' with foreign blades, and as we know, many were the narrow rapier blades. It does not seem too far fetched that the European fencing styles were in varying degree imitated, and use of the main gauche technique quite lilkely observed.

As always, my lack of martial arts knowledge being clear, it does seem that European fencing used the sword and buckler as well as the sword and main gauche, with both used in parrying blows or thrusts. With the rapier of course, the thrust parry involved the use of the main gauche to catch the opponents blade. A well protected guard for the hand would seem quite advisable, though in reality the unsharpened rapier edge was not really a threat to the hand.

Lat night I watched briefly a documentary on the martial arts technique of kalaripayattu in Kerala, India, in which opponents armed with sword and buckler engaged in extremely theatrical appearing combat. Much of this was quite choreographed with turns and leaps, which was described derisively by Sir Richard Burton whose views of native Indians was generally less than favorable in this regard. There were later shown some highly costumed and colorful traditional dance ceremonies using some of these techniques. I wonder if similar reeanactments might have also used the left hand dagger in imitation of the European fencing style?

I also found a very interesting entry in Pant (p.174) showing a dagger with very similar blade shape ( the leaf shape also termed 'gojivhagra' =tip of cow tongue, ibid.p.101). The dagger is known as a katar, katara (here Pant notes that the familiar transverse grip weapon is properly termed 'jemadhar) and the profile seems very similar to this piece. Obviously the full baskethilt does not concur with the hilt on this illustration, but the similarity seemed worthy of note.

Although it is clear that in India, among many spheres of culture, there is an industry fabricating all manner of souveniers for the thriving tourist industry. However it is important to remember that in many cultures, traditional weaponry is still an important element of costume. In other cases, there are votive pieces that are used in religious and traditional ceremonies as well. While these typically would not serve as functional combat weapons, they are typically representative of traditional and historic forms, in varying degree of course.

I guess all this simply means to me is that despite the relatively infallible quacking theory, it always seems worthwhile to keep an open mind

Besides, the search for the obscure against the odds is part of the fun!

Andrew · 8th August 2008, 06:12 PM

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

Uh Oh!!! I hope I'm not sounding like that! Brings back unpleasant memories of belly dancing swords

ward · 8th August 2008, 08:03 PM

I may have come off harsher than I meant, but good antique weapons are expensive and I think it is important for people to look at what they have. Afghan and Indian pieces are notourious for mariages and done in period I do not have a problem with them. Late additions should be treated as what they are.

Andrew · 9th August 2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Uh Oh!!! I hope I'm not sounding like that! Brings back unpleasant memories of belly dancing swords

No, I was sounding like that.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2008, 04:27 PM

Hi David,
The dagger has, of course, been put together, and as it is useless as it is, it is most likely not too long ago. The way the blade is formed, reminds me of the mid blade of some of the trisulas – maybe the maker had a trisula, and decided to make it into three daggers – who knows.

Jens

katana · 9th August 2008, 04:51 PM

Thank you very much Jim, for the additional information....excellent stuff

I am not convinced that this is an antique weapon.....but I am not convinced it isn't either. I have been trying to find a reference regarding Indian weapons and the use of experimental designs. From memory, it related to a battle where an number of fighters were equipped with 'prototype' weapons....the result was these were soon discarded (during battle) and 'known' weapons employed. The point of mentioning this is the fact that there were legit bladed weapons that , perhaps, were never recorded or, only mentioned in 'obscure' accounts ..that have not been discovered or were ignored by researchers.

The diversity of Indian weapons is well known, and although styles persisted (Tulwars, Khanda etc) blade configurations varied enormously to suit customs, function, armour,styling and personal requirements. I have always been amazed at the diversity of mace designs....many with Tulwar hilts. Most maces , in other cultures, are not hilted. I see that the resin fixing makes it quick and easy to attach a weapon but, why the hilt in the first place ? (but I digress ) It makes sense that experimental blades could quickly be fitted to a Tulwar hilt......if the experiment 'failed' ....some heat would quickly separate them, leaving a perfectly useable hilt. If married to a Khanda hilt it requires alot more effort and time. An argument I used to help prove the validity of my Rapier bladed Firangi.

After seeing this Khanda hilted 'dagger' , I thought it too bizarre for a fraudulent 'marriage' or even a bazaar piece . IMHO many 'potential customers' would be 'put off' by its seemingly lack of function greatly reducing its commercialism. In effect, its possible 'creation' to make money was flawed. That is why I began working on the assumption that this was genuine .... and saw one possible use was as a 'main gauche'.
Obviously pictures are not the best way to assess age etc but I would have liked to give this a 'in hand' examination.

Thank you all for your comments.

Kind Regards David

Rick · 8th August 2008, 06:15 PM

I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of this piece taken from different angles ; I'd like to see the blade edge on and more pictures of the attachment details .

8th August 2008, 06:04 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	In the description of the industrious endeavors of the locals in India recycling various components, it would seem that such crafting would be reduced to mindless commercialism. It seems in the weaponry of India, there are all manner of examples that elude comprehension of thier practical use, many with multiple blades, odd shapes, bizarre features and so on. Without deeper understanding of the traditional features and often symbolism of weapons associated with ceremonial events as well as martial applications, it is often difficult to transliterate functionality into western perspective. This dagger is, as agreed, a married piece, using a sword hilt that would seem incongruous to the traditional means of using a dagger, however Davids suggestion (using the western term main gauche descriptively) would seem to indicate possible imitation of western swordsmanship. Although we know that as the Portuguese presence in Malabar became emplaced, thier weapons influenced the Indian forms markedly. The baskethilt developed, mounted as 'firangi' with foreign blades, and as we know, many were the narrow rapier blades. It does not seem too far fetched that the European fencing styles were in varying degree imitated, and use of the main gauche technique quite lilkely observed. As always, my lack of martial arts knowledge being clear, it does seem that European fencing used the sword and buckler as well as the sword and main gauche, with both used in parrying blows or thrusts. With the rapier of course, the thrust parry involved the use of the main gauche to catch the opponents blade. A well protected guard for the hand would seem quite advisable, though in reality the unsharpened rapier edge was not really a threat to the hand. Lat night I watched briefly a documentary on the martial arts technique of kalaripayattu in Kerala, India, in which opponents armed with sword and buckler engaged in extremely theatrical appearing combat. Much of this was quite choreographed with turns and leaps, which was described derisively by Sir Richard Burton whose views of native Indians was generally less than favorable in this regard. There were later shown some highly costumed and colorful traditional dance ceremonies using some of these techniques. I wonder if similar reeanactments might have also used the left hand dagger in imitation of the European fencing style? I also found a very interesting entry in Pant (p.174) showing a dagger with very similar blade shape ( the leaf shape also termed 'gojivhagra' =tip of cow tongue, ibid.p.101). The dagger is known as a katar, katara (here Pant notes that the familiar transverse grip weapon is properly termed 'jemadhar) and the profile seems very similar to this piece. Obviously the full baskethilt does not concur with the hilt on this illustration, but the similarity seemed worthy of note. Although it is clear that in India, among many spheres of culture, there is an industry fabricating all manner of souveniers for the thriving tourist industry. However it is important to remember that in many cultures, traditional weaponry is still an important element of costume. In other cases, there are votive pieces that are used in religious and traditional ceremonies as well. While these typically would not serve as functional combat weapons, they are typically representative of traditional and historic forms, in varying degree of course. I guess all this simply means to me is that despite the relatively infallible quacking theory, it always seems worthwhile to keep an open mind Besides, the search for the obscure against the odds is part of the fun!

8th August 2008, 06:12 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

8th August 2008, 08:03 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I may have come off harsher than I meant, but good antique weapons are expensive and I think it is important for people to look at what they have. Afghan and Indian pieces are notourious for mariages and done in period I do not have a problem with them. Late additions should be treated as what they are.

9th August 2008, 04:27 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi David, The dagger has, of course, been put together, and as it is useless as it is, it is most likely not too long ago. The way the blade is formed, reminds me of the mid blade of some of the trisulas – maybe the maker had a trisula, and decided to make it into three daggers – who knows. Jens

9th August 2008, 04:51 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you very much Jim, for the additional information....excellent stuff I am not convinced that this is an antique weapon.....but I am not convinced it isn't either. I have been trying to find a reference regarding Indian weapons and the use of experimental designs. From memory, it related to a battle where an number of fighters were equipped with 'prototype' weapons....the result was these were soon discarded (during battle) and 'known' weapons employed. The point of mentioning this is the fact that there were legit bladed weapons that , perhaps, were never recorded or, only mentioned in 'obscure' accounts ..that have not been discovered or were ignored by researchers. The diversity of Indian weapons is well known, and although styles persisted (Tulwars, Khanda etc) blade configurations varied enormously to suit customs, function, armour,styling and personal requirements. I have always been amazed at the diversity of mace designs....many with Tulwar hilts. Most maces , in other cultures, are not hilted. I see that the resin fixing makes it quick and easy to attach a weapon but, why the hilt in the first place ? (but I digress ) It makes sense that experimental blades could quickly be fitted to a Tulwar hilt......if the experiment 'failed' ....some heat would quickly separate them, leaving a perfectly useable hilt. If married to a Khanda hilt it requires alot more effort and time. An argument I used to help prove the validity of my Rapier bladed Firangi. After seeing this Khanda hilted 'dagger' , I thought it too bizarre for a fraudulent 'marriage' or even a bazaar piece . IMHO many 'potential customers' would be 'put off' by its seemingly lack of function greatly reducing its commercialism. In effect, its possible 'creation' to make money was flawed. That is why I began working on the assumption that this was genuine .... and saw one possible use was as a 'main gauche'. Obviously pictures are not the best way to assess age etc but I would have liked to give this a 'in hand' examination. Thank you all for your comments. Kind Regards David

8th August 2008, 06:15 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of this piece taken from different angles ; I'd like to see the blade edge on and more pictures of the attachment details .