Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

ariel · 3rd August 2008, 12:03 AM

Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin?
Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons.
Remake?

Andrew · 3rd August 2008, 03:16 AM

As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

Rick · 3rd August 2008, 05:04 AM

What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point .
The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end .

Married piece IMO .
Just saying ......

katana · 3rd August 2008, 07:09 PM

Thank you all for your input

. I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere.

The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2008, 05:31 AM

Well thought out assessment David! and I am inclined to agree, this was definitely put together to be used. I'm still curious about the blade, and the distinct raised central ridge reminds me of an earlier native khanda blade that has been ground down to fit the much smaller opening in the hilt. This reminds me of the rapier blade khandas.

The idea of a spear blade that Rick suggested seems plausible also, and again the section recalls the Maasai spear.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 4th August 2008, 05:12 PM

I think we might want to consider whether or not the hilt configuration would allow proper wrist movement for use as a main gauche .

IIRC in another thread we discussed the limiting of certain movements by the disc pommel .

katana · 4th August 2008, 06:08 PM

Hi Jim,
thank you for your comments

Although, I feel it is easier just to say its a 'married piece', I still feel that this particular 'dagger' could be 'legitimate' and it would be a shame to ignore this 'possiblity'. I had hoped similar examples might be known. If this item is 'unique' there is little chance of proving whether this was a historical compilation or a 'made up' piece for re-sale. I sometimes wonder, whether sometimes ...we are too quick to denounce a particular weapon because it doesn't 'fit' into a 'known category'. I also wondered whether the blade with its Khanda shape had any significance...and I do agree that Rick's suggestion of a spearhead is a good possibility

Hi Rick

,
I am inclined to agree that the disc pommel would limit wrist movement, perhaps less so for an Indian warrior if the 'smaller hand theory' is correct. I did / do not think that the European style of sword use would have been adopted ... I think likely 'adapted'. I used the term 'main gauche' as a sort of European equivalent...but the technique of use, I believe, would be different. I am working on the assumption that this was made for a particular 'function' ....and it seems to 'fit the bill' as some sort of parrying 'sword', although, of course, there are other possible uses.

Kind Regards David

3rd August 2008, 12:03 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin? Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons. Remake?

3rd August 2008, 03:16 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

3rd August 2008, 05:04 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point . The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end . Married piece IMO . Just saying ......

3rd August 2008, 07:09 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you all for your input . I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere. The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible. Regards David

4th August 2008, 05:31 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,687	Well thought out assessment David! and I am inclined to agree, this was definitely put together to be used. I'm still curious about the blade, and the distinct raised central ridge reminds me of an earlier native khanda blade that has been ground down to fit the much smaller opening in the hilt. This reminds me of the rapier blade khandas. The idea of a spear blade that Rick suggested seems plausible also, and again the section recalls the Maasai spear. All the best, Jim

4th August 2008, 05:12 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	I think we might want to consider whether or not the hilt configuration would allow proper wrist movement for use as a main gauche . IIRC in another thread we discussed the limiting of certain movements by the disc pommel .

4th August 2008, 06:08 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thank you for your comments Although, I feel it is easier just to say its a 'married piece', I still feel that this particular 'dagger' could be 'legitimate' and it would be a shame to ignore this 'possiblity'. I had hoped similar examples might be known. If this item is 'unique' there is little chance of proving whether this was a historical compilation or a 'made up' piece for re-sale. I sometimes wonder, whether sometimes ...we are too quick to denounce a particular weapon because it doesn't 'fit' into a 'known category'. I also wondered whether the blade with its Khanda shape had any significance...and I do agree that Rick's suggestion of a spearhead is a good possibility Hi Rick , I am inclined to agree that the disc pommel would limit wrist movement, perhaps less so for an Indian warrior if the 'smaller hand theory' is correct. I did / do not think that the European style of sword use would have been adopted ... I think likely 'adapted'. I used the term 'main gauche' as a sort of European equivalent...but the technique of use, I believe, would be different. I am working on the assumption that this was made for a particular 'function' ....and it seems to 'fit the bill' as some sort of parrying 'sword', although, of course, there are other possible uses. Kind Regards David