Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

Valjhun · 2nd August 2008, 04:32 PM

It seems like a composite piece to me.

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2008, 05:57 PM

Now thats unusual David! I cannot say I've ever seen a khanda hilt in a dagger type configuration like this. It would indeed be tempting to think of this interesting example having been fashioned as the companion to the rapier bladed firangi previously discussed and used as a 'main gauche'.

While it seems it has been found that the Mahrattas were of course in certain degree influenced or at least impressed by Portuguese fashion and swordsmanship, I am not sure that they ever really adopted fencing technique to that level. It would be interesting to discover more on that. It would not be infeasible to imagine a Mahratta merchant or official imitating such European fashion.

A sword hilt fashioned into a knife seems to have been a one off occurence in numbers of cases. I have seen smallswords fashioned into knives this way as well as regulation military swords, usually left hilted as originally and the blade simply honed into knife shape. I think one of the most unusual instances I can think of were the M1913 Patton swords with huge steel hilts being made into combat knifes in WWII. Obviously, these examples have nothing to do with the knife we are discussing, but simply noted to illustrate instances using the concept.

Most interesting piece, and excellent example to review. It is not uncommon to refashion broken or damaged weapons considering thier value, and the concept obviously not isolated to certain periods or cultures.

The blade on this piece is intriguing as it has the distinct shape and central ridge reminding me of earlier Maasai seme' blades. I have often wondered if there could be any connection between those and earlier khanda blades. The trade between coastal western India and east Africa is of course well known, but there was notable presence of Indian workers in these regions of Africa during 19th century colonial presence. I recall once speaking with a lady who was clearly of Indian ancestry and being surprised when she told me she was from Kenya. She noted her family had been there for generations and that many Indian workers went there during those times.

Thank you for posting this David!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 2nd August 2008, 06:27 PM

Hi Valjhan,
could be a composite, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I believe that it was 'compiled' for a purpose.

Hi Jim

,
nice to hear from you. The hilt on this 'dagger' is very interesting notice the crossguard with the large finials mounted on the 'shell' guard'....double re-inforcement....that would not be necessary on a dagger. The blade is heavily tapered to the hilt....these two factors strongly suggest that this is some sort of 'parrying weapon'.

The blade would deflect (guide) an opponents blade towards the guard(s) the large finials preventing the blade 'sliding' off and around the 'shell' guard. The strength of the 'doubled up' guard would only make sense if it was known that this area would receive 'alot of attention'.

I have never seen a hilt like it before

Kind Regards David

ariel · 2nd August 2008, 11:03 PM

Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin?
Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons.
Remake?

Andrew · 3rd August 2008, 02:16 AM

As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

Rick · 3rd August 2008, 04:04 AM

What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point .
The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end .

Married piece IMO .
Just saying ......

katana · 3rd August 2008, 06:09 PM

Thank you all for your input

. I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere.

The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible.

Regards David

2nd August 2008, 06:27 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Valjhan, could be a composite, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I believe that it was 'compiled' for a purpose. Hi Jim , nice to hear from you. The hilt on this 'dagger' is very interesting notice the crossguard with the large finials mounted on the 'shell' guard'....double re-inforcement....that would not be necessary on a dagger. The blade is heavily tapered to the hilt....these two factors strongly suggest that this is some sort of 'parrying weapon'. The blade would deflect (guide) an opponents blade towards the guard(s) the large finials preventing the blade 'sliding' off and around the 'shell' guard. The strength of the 'doubled up' guard would only make sense if it was known that this area would receive 'alot of attention'. I have never seen a hilt like it before Kind Regards David Attached Images

2nd August 2008, 04:32 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It seems like a composite piece to me.

2nd August 2008, 05:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Now thats unusual David! I cannot say I've ever seen a khanda hilt in a dagger type configuration like this. It would indeed be tempting to think of this interesting example having been fashioned as the companion to the rapier bladed firangi previously discussed and used as a 'main gauche'. While it seems it has been found that the Mahrattas were of course in certain degree influenced or at least impressed by Portuguese fashion and swordsmanship, I am not sure that they ever really adopted fencing technique to that level. It would be interesting to discover more on that. It would not be infeasible to imagine a Mahratta merchant or official imitating such European fashion. A sword hilt fashioned into a knife seems to have been a one off occurence in numbers of cases. I have seen smallswords fashioned into knives this way as well as regulation military swords, usually left hilted as originally and the blade simply honed into knife shape. I think one of the most unusual instances I can think of were the M1913 Patton swords with huge steel hilts being made into combat knifes in WWII. Obviously, these examples have nothing to do with the knife we are discussing, but simply noted to illustrate instances using the concept. Most interesting piece, and excellent example to review. It is not uncommon to refashion broken or damaged weapons considering thier value, and the concept obviously not isolated to certain periods or cultures. The blade on this piece is intriguing as it has the distinct shape and central ridge reminding me of earlier Maasai seme' blades. I have often wondered if there could be any connection between those and earlier khanda blades. The trade between coastal western India and east Africa is of course well known, but there was notable presence of Indian workers in these regions of Africa during 19th century colonial presence. I recall once speaking with a lady who was clearly of Indian ancestry and being surprised when she told me she was from Kenya. She noted her family had been there for generations and that many Indian workers went there during those times. Thank you for posting this David! All the best, Jim

2nd August 2008, 11:03 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin? Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons. Remake?

3rd August 2008, 02:16 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

3rd August 2008, 04:04 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point . The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end . Married piece IMO . Just saying ......

3rd August 2008, 06:09 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you all for your input . I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere. The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible. Regards David