corsican cavalry saber, or.............

ward · 25th July 2008, 01:55 AM

cuban south american . Take Tirri's book for the most part with a grain of salt

TVV · 25th July 2008, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

cuban south american . Take Tirri's book for the most part with a grain of salt

Has the Cuban provenance been confirmed?

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2008, 03:26 AM

Good grief! .....Corsican?!! heres a new one!!
Just for kicks, check out the search feature here (its on the top header line, click on it and fill in the line with 'Berber sabre').

These are a 19th century phenomenon......and as we have discussed many times here over the past decade, these seem to have appeared as an anomaly about 15 or so years ago and represented as Berber sabres from the Rif in Morocco. This was the information Tirri was following as he wrote his book ,which is actually a beautifully published book for what it is..a collectors guide. Most of the information is pretty reliable though, and was based on the information on hand at the time it was published.

I got one of these about then, and after looking closely at the blade, realized it was a heavily profiled tip on a British M1796 light cavalry sabre. The scabbard had a curious vertical protrusion similar to many Ethiopian scabbard forms for the gurade (in "African Weapons" by Spring). What was most curious, as I have mentioned on many threads, is that these distinctly recognizable sabres do not appear in any of the standard references dealing with Moroccan weapons. It would seem that Buttin would have had one of these in his huge collection as he lived in Morocco for many years, and had every weapon form known there in the 19th c and earlier.

I have seen these turn up in Mexican weapons groupings, the Cuban suggestion stands as plausible, and there have even been suggestions for the far reach of the Spanish trade empire, the Philippines or even Indonesia.

We have finally established one of these mystery weapons as Cuban (Spanish American machete thread), but the jury is still out on this one.....the Corsican wild card is a good one though!!

TVV · 25th July 2008, 03:34 AM

I am leaning towards the Carribean as I have one with the following inscription on the blade "PARA LOS VALIENTES DOMINICANOS". I would be happy to see the mystery solved, whatever the origin of these swords turns out to be.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2008, 03:51 AM

Thats great Teodor, I'm pretty much with you that these seem more Caribbean and in the Spanish colonies also. It would seem to me that they might well have reached the Spanish Sahara in a small number, but certainly not enough to represent an established weapon form there.

What is most curious to me is the deliberate profiling of the blade tip, with a certain similarity to the type of profiling seen on the tip of many kampilan blades, not necessarily suggesting a connection, just noting it.

On the example I had there was what remained of a stamped name ..MANU.e?
suggesting of course Manuel, cold stamped near the forte on the M1796 blade. These swords seem more machete than anything else, and as more of a utility item than weapon, it seems to explain more these may have evaded individuals cataloguing the weapons of regions such as Morocco as noted.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 25th July 2008, 02:59 PM

Couple of years ago I was at a meeing in Versailles ( France, of course:-)...)
There was a big oil painting in the Palace , dating from the 18th century(?) and depicting some episode in North African warfare.At the right lower corner, there was a fierce Arab holding exactly this kind of sword.
I did not have a camera ( and photography was officially banned).
perhaps, one of our French friends can find the picture and provide an account.

ward · 25th July 2008, 08:32 PM

I have never seen anything similar in museums or in the souqs in North Africa. It is always possible that it is but the only reference I have seen saying that is Tirri.

25th July 2008, 01:55 AM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	cuban south american . Take Tirri's book for the most part with a grain of salt

25th July 2008, 03:26 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Good grief! .....Corsican?!! heres a new one!! Just for kicks, check out the search feature here (its on the top header line, click on it and fill in the line with 'Berber sabre'). These are a 19th century phenomenon......and as we have discussed many times here over the past decade, these seem to have appeared as an anomaly about 15 or so years ago and represented as Berber sabres from the Rif in Morocco. This was the information Tirri was following as he wrote his book ,which is actually a beautifully published book for what it is..a collectors guide. Most of the information is pretty reliable though, and was based on the information on hand at the time it was published. I got one of these about then, and after looking closely at the blade, realized it was a heavily profiled tip on a British M1796 light cavalry sabre. The scabbard had a curious vertical protrusion similar to many Ethiopian scabbard forms for the gurade (in "African Weapons" by Spring). What was most curious, as I have mentioned on many threads, is that these distinctly recognizable sabres do not appear in any of the standard references dealing with Moroccan weapons. It would seem that Buttin would have had one of these in his huge collection as he lived in Morocco for many years, and had every weapon form known there in the 19th c and earlier. I have seen these turn up in Mexican weapons groupings, the Cuban suggestion stands as plausible, and there have even been suggestions for the far reach of the Spanish trade empire, the Philippines or even Indonesia. We have finally established one of these mystery weapons as Cuban (Spanish American machete thread), but the jury is still out on this one.....the Corsican wild card is a good one though!!

25th July 2008, 03:34 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	I am leaning towards the Carribean as I have one with the following inscription on the blade "PARA LOS VALIENTES DOMINICANOS". I would be happy to see the mystery solved, whatever the origin of these swords turns out to be.

25th July 2008, 03:51 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thats great Teodor, I'm pretty much with you that these seem more Caribbean and in the Spanish colonies also. It would seem to me that they might well have reached the Spanish Sahara in a small number, but certainly not enough to represent an established weapon form there. What is most curious to me is the deliberate profiling of the blade tip, with a certain similarity to the type of profiling seen on the tip of many kampilan blades, not necessarily suggesting a connection, just noting it. On the example I had there was what remained of a stamped name ..MANU.e? suggesting of course Manuel, cold stamped near the forte on the M1796 blade. These swords seem more machete than anything else, and as more of a utility item than weapon, it seems to explain more these may have evaded individuals cataloguing the weapons of regions such as Morocco as noted. All best regards, Jim

25th July 2008, 02:59 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Couple of years ago I was at a meeing in Versailles ( France, of course:-)...) There was a big oil painting in the Palace , dating from the 18th century(?) and depicting some episode in North African warfare.At the right lower corner, there was a fierce Arab holding exactly this kind of sword. I did not have a camera ( and photography was officially banned). perhaps, one of our French friends can find the picture and provide an account.

25th July 2008, 08:32 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have never seen anything similar in museums or in the souqs in North Africa. It is always possible that it is but the only reference I have seen saying that is Tirri.