sword i bid on, but dident meet the reserve.

ward · 21st July 2008, 01:54 AM

It meets my criteria for one. It is nice

Rick · 21st July 2008, 02:04 AM

I've got a feeling the blade itself is quite old .

ward · 21st July 2008, 02:12 AM

European blade any markings ?

Rick · 21st July 2008, 02:32 AM

Familiar with this mark Ward ?

We've had no luck so far; IIRC someone (maybe Derek?) thought it might be French .

Any ideas ?

ward · 21st July 2008, 02:47 AM

I will check some references and see if I can find anything give me some time

Rick · 21st July 2008, 03:06 AM

Thanks Ward .

Need better pictures ?

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2008, 03:22 AM

Wow! Thats a lot of response on this!!
Artzi's statement is of course right on target, in fact the ring guard example I got from him was one of a large group made in Zanzibar and exported to Yemen. Buttin's reference in the 1933 work concurs with these being Zanzibar made for Arabs.

Since the 'nimchas' of Morocco always carried trade blades from varying centers, primarily Solingen, they were nearly always full length and many were 'backswords' (single edge straight blades). The term sa'if is simply the term locally applied to these swords, and as noted, is a general transliteration. It is interesting to note that in the Sudan, the kaskara term is completely unknown, and these broadswords are called....sa'if!

The 'nimcha' term for the Moroccan swords with several drooping quillons does actually apply primarily to the distinctive hilt style, disregarding the blade it carries. This hilt form actually developed from early sabres from Venice of the storta type**, and existed early in the 17th century in Morocco, in fact there are portraits of English figures wearing them in that time.

Rick the example you have is extremely nice, especially the great patination! It is one of the early ones, 18th century to be sure, and the blade stamp as previously discussed pretty elusive. I remember trying to find it in all the standard references, and doesnt correspond directly with anything in particular.

For the sake of simplicity, I think these horn hilted, multiquilloned Moroccan swords as well as the Zanzibar variants should be left at nimcha.

The so called 'wedding nimchas' are simply costume and ceremonial pieces and of course the name is in degree correct.

*** the takouba blades were often trade blades, though the native made blades were certainly traded as well, and it would not be surprising to see one on the Moroccan nimcha. The Andrea Ferrara blade would be distinctly Solingen.

All the best,
Jim

** see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North, in
"Connoisseur" magazine Dec.1975, pp238-241 for more
on the connection between Italian swords and the Moroccan
nimcha.
Jim

ariel · 21st July 2008, 04:13 PM

There are several examples of swords with " drooping quillons" : Spanish-Moresque Jineta, North African and Zanzibari Nimcha and Omani Kattara ( the older variant). They look like sharing this feature.
Arabs migrated to N. Africa and Iberia quite early in the course of Islamic invasion and converted the entire native population to Islam.
Do these swords carry a " birthmark" of the early , pra Islamic model? Or, were the "droopers" peculiar to local Berber tradition and later just spread both East and West? Or...
You got my drift.
Jim? Ward? Any volunteers?

21st July 2008, 02:32 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	??? Familiar with this mark Ward ? We've had no luck so far; IIRC someone (maybe Derek?) thought it might be French . Any ideas ? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 21st July 2008 at 03:10 AM.

21st July 2008, 03:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Wow! Thats a lot of response on this!! Artzi's statement is of course right on target, in fact the ring guard example I got from him was one of a large group made in Zanzibar and exported to Yemen. Buttin's reference in the 1933 work concurs with these being Zanzibar made for Arabs. Since the 'nimchas' of Morocco always carried trade blades from varying centers, primarily Solingen, they were nearly always full length and many were 'backswords' (single edge straight blades). The term sa'if is simply the term locally applied to these swords, and as noted, is a general transliteration. It is interesting to note that in the Sudan, the kaskara term is completely unknown, and these broadswords are called....sa'if! The 'nimcha' term for the Moroccan swords with several drooping quillons does actually apply primarily to the distinctive hilt style, disregarding the blade it carries. This hilt form actually developed from early sabres from Venice of the storta type, and existed early in the 17th century in Morocco, in fact there are portraits of English figures wearing them in that time. Rick the example you have is extremely nice, especially the great patination! It is one of the early ones, 18th century to be sure, and the blade stamp as previously discussed pretty elusive. I remember trying to find it in all the standard references, and doesnt correspond directly with anything in particular. For the sake of simplicity, I think these horn hilted, multiquilloned Moroccan swords as well as the Zanzibar variants should be left at nimcha. The so called 'wedding nimchas' are simply costume and ceremonial pieces and of course the name is in degree correct. * the takouba blades were often trade blades, though the native made blades were certainly traded as well, and it would not be surprising to see one on the Moroccan nimcha. The Andrea Ferrara blade would be distinctly Solingen. All the best, Jim ** see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North, in "Connoisseur" magazine Dec.1975, pp238-241 for more on the connection between Italian swords and the Moroccan nimcha. Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st July 2008 at 03:46 AM.

21st July 2008, 01:54 AM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It meets my criteria for one. It is nice

21st July 2008, 02:04 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I've got a feeling the blade itself is quite old .

21st July 2008, 02:12 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	European blade any markings ?

21st July 2008, 02:47 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I will check some references and see if I can find anything give me some time

21st July 2008, 03:06 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Thanks Ward . Need better pictures ?

21st July 2008, 04:13 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are several examples of swords with " drooping quillons" : Spanish-Moresque Jineta, North African and Zanzibari Nimcha and Omani Kattara ( the older variant). They look like sharing this feature. Arabs migrated to N. Africa and Iberia quite early in the course of Islamic invasion and converted the entire native population to Islam. Do these swords carry a " birthmark" of the early , pra Islamic model? Or, were the "droopers" peculiar to local Berber tradition and later just spread both East and West? Or... You got my drift. Jim? Ward? Any volunteers?