A tiny cannon for ID and coments

kronckew · 19th July 2008, 07:22 PM

i feel it's a hand cannon myself, the rough bore would not be unusual after all these years of relative neglect and corrosion, probably was a bit more regular when 1st made & used.

they'd use pretty crude powder, grass wadding and convenient sized rocks for ammo, iron and lead shot is a much later application for sophisticated matchlock and later wheel locks when bores could be controlled better during mfg to reduce windage...

additionally, it was expected that the odd hand cannon or two would blow up (variance in powder quality, payload, corrosion due to poor cleaning, poor craftsmanship techniques, double loading*, etc. one reason fro a LONG stick. the bands not only held it to the stick, but kept some of the chunks of a burst barrel from zapping the shooter or those alongside.

the short barrel while not allowing maximum velocity, would give less chance of a shot sticking or jamming and blowing up the device, while still producing a satisfactory BOOM, smoke and such to frighten the horses, and if really lucky actually have the projectile hit and damage an armoured man.

of course my muzzle loading experience started with cap and ball rifled muskets & pistols, a much more modern approach.

*- one rather embarrassed yankee pvt. in the civil war was noted to have loaded his musket about a dozen times without actually firing it, each load rammed down on the previous one. luckily he DIDN'T remember to cap it before he pulled the trigger or it might have been less humorous... of course the confederates would never do such a thing

, wastes ammo.

fernando · 20th July 2008, 12:56 AM

Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne.
This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture.
... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case

Fernando

kronckew · 20th July 2008, 07:30 AM

in the absence of direct evidence we can only go on opinions and assumptions, and can never be 100% sure. the lack of a base, like fatter mug signal cannons, and the size and the banding evidence suggesting it was strapped to a stock of some sort pushed the preponderance of the evidence in my mind. the signal cannon found in an old wreck that were similar in appearance also look larger and fatter in relation to their length, supporting a vertical use for them as opposed to yours, which would be more unstable set on end; something not desirable in a maritime usage...in either case this appears to be a rare and unusual addition to your collection. thanks for sharing it with us.

Norman McCormick · 9th August 2008, 01:02 PM

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 10th August 2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!

My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman
I don't know about your "Glorious Twelfth"; but i can say that, in our "Game Opening" day, the majority of the shooters are a greater bore than that of my piece

.

All the best
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 12th August 2008, 07:56 PM

Hi Fernando,
So true, so true, I suspect it's the same the world over.
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 13th August 2008, 05:00 AM

Speaking of cannons, I missed out on this one the other week. Check out eBay item #170241460432. Seller said 1900? I'd say earlier, perhaps early 19th? What say you folks? Is this a signal cannon, small mortar, hand cannon, coehorn or ?

M ELEY · 13th August 2008, 08:42 PM

Any takers? I did notice this was a "private auction" with hidden buyers. I don't know much about these types of auctions, but I'm told they can be a little shady. Too bad, seems like an interesting piece...

fernando · 13th August 2008, 10:51 PM

Hi Mark
Such a pitty you didn't get it; very serious stuff ... so it looks.
Rather reinforced barrel, wide ( or worn) touch hole, large caliber ... meaning XIX century or even prior ? Not old enough to de considered a hand cannon, though ?
Also not a coehorn mortar ... It would need trunnions placed low, by the breech, for the rotation, right ?
It has a cascable, though ... was it moveable ?
I'm glad there are no experts around, to shut me up

.
Fernando

kronckew · 13th August 2008, 11:15 PM

no trunnions, so likely not an aimable mortar or cannon, may have been strapped to a carriage of some sort, too big & too recent for a hand cannon. too short for much. s缠mall cannon were used for line throwing but would have had trunnions . small rail mounted anti-personnel cannon would have had trunnions to mount it on a swivel. my guess is a signal cannon for a larger ship.

coehorn mortar, trunnions on base

small swivel gun, trunnions again

this small late 18c - early 19c howitzer is close, but has trunnions again.

lyle gun (line throwing)

trunnions again - this is a big lyle.

more traditional brass one in high polish

here's the whole gubbins with the coast guard crew to service it.

aha! a trunnion-less one mounted on a fixed base!

this is a signal gun used to start yacht races

note that 19-20c cannon of this type would have a lanyard operated percussion firing device threaded into it rather than a touch hole. removal would leave a larger hole than we'd expect for one fired by a slow match.

one for a lyle gun

20th July 2008, 12:56 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne. This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture. ... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case Fernando Attached Images

13th August 2008, 05:00 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Speaking of cannons, I missed out on this one the other week. Check out eBay item #170241460432. Seller said 1900? I'd say earlier, perhaps early 19th? What say you folks? Is this a signal cannon, small mortar, hand cannon, coehorn or ? Last edited by M ELEY; 13th August 2008 at 08:40 PM. Reason: spelling!

13th August 2008, 11:15 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	no trunnions, so likely not an aimable mortar or cannon, may have been strapped to a carriage of some sort, too big & too recent for a hand cannon. too short for much. s缠mall cannon were used for line throwing but would have had trunnions . small rail mounted anti-personnel cannon would have had trunnions to mount it on a swivel. my guess is a signal cannon for a larger ship. coehorn mortar, trunnions on base small swivel gun, trunnions again this small late 18c - early 19c howitzer is close, but has trunnions again. lyle gun (line throwing) trunnions again - this is a big lyle. more traditional brass one in high polish here's the whole gubbins with the coast guard crew to service it. aha! a trunnion-less one mounted on a fixed base! this is a signal gun used to start yacht races note that 19-20c cannon of this type would have a lanyard operated percussion firing device threaded into it rather than a touch hole. removal would leave a larger hole than we'd expect for one fired by a slow match. one for a lyle gun Last edited by kronckew; 13th August 2008 at 11:53 PM.

19th July 2008, 07:22 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i feel it's a hand cannon myself, the rough bore would not be unusual after all these years of relative neglect and corrosion, probably was a bit more regular when 1st made & used. they'd use pretty crude powder, grass wadding and convenient sized rocks for ammo, iron and lead shot is a much later application for sophisticated matchlock and later wheel locks when bores could be controlled better during mfg to reduce windage... additionally, it was expected that the odd hand cannon or two would blow up (variance in powder quality, payload, corrosion due to poor cleaning, poor craftsmanship techniques, double loading, etc. one reason fro a LONG stick. the bands not only held it to the stick, but kept some of the chunks of a burst barrel from zapping the shooter or those alongside. the short barrel while not allowing maximum velocity, would give less chance of a shot sticking or jamming and blowing up the device, while still producing a satisfactory BOOM, smoke and such to frighten the horses, and if really lucky actually have the projectile hit and damage an armoured man. of course my muzzle loading experience started with cap and ball rifled muskets & pistols, a much more modern approach. - one rather embarrassed yankee pvt. in the civil war was noted to have loaded his musket about a dozen times without actually firing it, each load rammed down on the previous one. luckily he DIDN'T remember to cap it before he pulled the trigger or it might have been less humorous... of course the confederates would never do such a thing , wastes ammo. Last edited by kronckew; 19th July 2008 at 07:37 PM.

20th July 2008, 07:30 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	in the absence of direct evidence we can only go on opinions and assumptions, and can never be 100% sure. the lack of a base, like fatter mug signal cannons, and the size and the banding evidence suggesting it was strapped to a stock of some sort pushed the preponderance of the evidence in my mind. the signal cannon found in an old wreck that were similar in appearance also look larger and fatter in relation to their length, supporting a vertical use for them as opposed to yours, which would be more unstable set on end; something not desirable in a maritime usage...in either case this appears to be a rare and unusual addition to your collection. thanks for sharing it with us.

9th August 2008, 01:02 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!! My Regards, Norman.

12th August 2008, 07:56 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, So true, so true, I suspect it's the same the world over. My Regards, Norman.

13th August 2008, 08:42 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Any takers? I did notice this was a "private auction" with hidden buyers. I don't know much about these types of auctions, but I'm told they can be a little shady. Too bad, seems like an interesting piece...

13th August 2008, 10:51 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark Such a pitty you didn't get it; very serious stuff ... so it looks. Rather reinforced barrel, wide ( or worn) touch hole, large caliber ... meaning XIX century or even prior ? Not old enough to de considered a hand cannon, though ? Also not a coehorn mortar ... It would need trunnions placed low, by the breech, for the rotation, right ? It has a cascable, though ... was it moveable ? I'm glad there are no experts around, to shut me up . Fernando