Export of iron from SE Asia

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2005, 04:09 PM

So far the discussion has mostly been on export of ingots from south of India and Sri Lanka, I have lately learned from Ann Feuerbach that the caravans travelling on the Silk Road also brought ingots to Arabia. I have been reading about it in several books, one being ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, and latest, in a newly acquired book, The Arms and Armour of Arabia, in the 18th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood, in Appendix II, ‘Damascus sword manufacture’ he discus the importance if Damascus as a centre for sword making. Arguing that Damascus was rather known for being a centre of sword trade than for sword making, not that there were no sword smith’s in Damascus, but not enough to make it a centre for sword making – he also mentions many other places, known for their quality swords. On page 104 he writes, ‘Contemporary references to weapons in Syria reinforce the view that Indian swords dominated the market’.

I have, in other places, seen hints and references to export of blades from India, but I have never before seen reference to, that the Indian’s should have exported so many blades that they dominated a market as big as the Syrian, which must have been big at the time. When was ‘at the time’? Robert Elgood does not specify it, but from the text I gather, it is from before the Europeans settled in India

So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east?

The export of blades to the west alone means, that the blade production in south and west India must have been intensive, as they, not only could equip their own armies with blades, but they also had a very big export of them, if they could dominate the Arabian market. This also means, that many of the blades we normally consider being Persian, may very well be made in India, and on arrival decorated in Persia – if that too was not made in India.

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 08:54 PM

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]

So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east?

I have just obtained an Indonesian Ensiklopedi Keris that says there are no references to keris in India. What stone sculpture are you refering to? Do you have pictures, please?

According to history novelist Pramudya Ananta Toer in the Hindu period Java imported iron from a place called Wullungga which he thinks is Africa. There are many different types of iron in Javanese kerisology, including Cambodia Iron, Indian iron, Chinese iron and also iron from Luwu in Sulawesi.

Rick · 26th April 2005, 09:17 PM

Welcome to the forum Kiai , I believe that Jens was referring to non-keris blades in his post .

On another note I have often heard of 'Sheffield keris' being exported from England to Indonesia / Philippines ; I have yet to see one though .

/Enjoyed Toer's Buru Quartet , very moving and enlightening to a 20th c. Westerner .

Jens Nordlunde · 27th April 2005, 09:04 AM

Hi Kiai,

In the book 'Hindu Arms and Rituals' by Robert Elgood you can see stone sculptures armed with a dagger on page 122-23. Due to copyright I can't show the pictures, but the text under one of the pictures reads: Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-34) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1610.

rahman · 27th April 2005, 09:59 AM

Wullungga? There's a place called Wollongong in Australia, and it's an Aboroginal name - long before the coming of the British.

One possibility is that there is not enough iron in SEAsia to export. Even when making keris in the old days, people have to use the iron 'pebbles' along the beaches. I guess the scarcity of iron makes the keris more precious, and partly explains the reverence for it.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th April 2005, 10:38 AM

Hi Rahman,

I don't know it they had iron in the place you mention in Australia, but Australia sounds more reasonable than an African import, as iron was to be had from countries much closer than Africa.

I don't know about the rest of SEAsia, but in India they had enough iron, not only for their own use, but they also exported hundreds of tons westwards each year, from the towns in the south. As the Indians also traded eastward, it is likely that the also exported iron to the rest of SEAsia. Another thing is, that the Indian iron can have been so expencive, that many had to get the iron they needed in other ways.

Ian · 28th April 2005, 01:03 PM

Rahman:

Wollongong is on the east coast of Australia, just south of the major city of Sydney. By sea, that would be roughly 2,000 miles from Indonesia, and even further from other areas of SE Asia. Probably not very likely that this was a source of iron, and I'm not sure there would be much iron there anyway. Most of the iron ore in Austalia is mined a hundred miles or more inland. If iron ore was being mined in Australia before the arrival of Europeans, the northwestern areas of the country would be more likely, where there are iron ore deposits.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Wullungga? There's a place called Wollongong in Australia, and it's an Aboroginal name - long before the coming of the British.

Kiai Carita · 28th April 2005, 08:18 PM

The historian Denis Lombard in his books Nusa Jawa Silang Budaya puts forward the theory that the Java keris is small because of the lack of iron in Java. However there has been an experiment conducted in Cilacap and Solo to try and make a keris using Cilacap iron sand melted down using traditional technologies. The experoiment was to ask the question whether or not the java Mpu could make keris using iron from Java even if there is no othe evidence from literature or legend to support that belief. The experimenters succeded in making a keris with pamor resembling pamor Luwu. As for Wullungga in Pramoedya's book 'Arus Balik' I don't think refers to Wollongong in NSW.

Salam Keris

Kiai Carita · 28th April 2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Kiai,

In the book 'Hindu Arms and Rituals' by Robert Elgood you can see stone sculptures armed with a dagger on page 122-23. Due to copyright I can't show the pictures, but the text under one of the pictures reads: Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-34) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1610.

Thank you Jens, I have never heard of Robert Elgood. Does the picture of the dagger have a ganja? Does the blade bow forward? Was the temple built in 1610? Was the keris there an influence from Java rather than the other way around?

Java legends remember Aji Saka coming from Hindustan and releasing Java from the canibalism of Dewata Cengkar. Aji Saka was said to have brought a keris with him. Java kerisologi has the origin of the keris in the times of the gods. I think the name of the first Mpu was Mpu Angganjali meaning the Owner of Knowledge (Mpu) who Put The Ganja on.

Salam keris

26th April 2005, 08:54 PM	#2
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Iron and Java Keris [QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde] So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east? I have just obtained an Indonesian Ensiklopedi Keris that says there are no references to keris in India. What stone sculpture are you refering to? Do you have pictures, please? According to history novelist Pramudya Ananta Toer in the Hindu period Java imported iron from a place called Wullungga which he thinks is Africa. There are many different types of iron in Javanese kerisology, including Cambodia Iron, Indian iron, Chinese iron and also iron from Luwu in Sulawesi.

28th April 2005, 08:18 PM	#8
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Iron for Keris The historian Denis Lombard in his books Nusa Jawa Silang Budaya puts forward the theory that the Java keris is small because of the lack of iron in Java. However there has been an experiment conducted in Cilacap and Solo to try and make a keris using Cilacap iron sand melted down using traditional technologies. The experoiment was to ask the question whether or not the java Mpu could make keris using iron from Java even if there is no othe evidence from literature or legend to support that belief. The experimenters succeded in making a keris with pamor resembling pamor Luwu. As for Wullungga in Pramoedya's book 'Arus Balik' I don't think refers to Wollongong in NSW. Salam Keris

30th March 2005, 04:09 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	So far the discussion has mostly been on export of ingots from south of India and Sri Lanka, I have lately learned from Ann Feuerbach that the caravans travelling on the Silk Road also brought ingots to Arabia. I have been reading about it in several books, one being ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, and latest, in a newly acquired book, The Arms and Armour of Arabia, in the 18th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood, in Appendix II, ‘Damascus sword manufacture’ he discus the importance if Damascus as a centre for sword making. Arguing that Damascus was rather known for being a centre of sword trade than for sword making, not that there were no sword smith’s in Damascus, but not enough to make it a centre for sword making – he also mentions many other places, known for their quality swords. On page 104 he writes, ‘Contemporary references to weapons in Syria reinforce the view that Indian swords dominated the market’. I have, in other places, seen hints and references to export of blades from India, but I have never before seen reference to, that the Indian’s should have exported so many blades that they dominated a market as big as the Syrian, which must have been big at the time. When was ‘at the time’? Robert Elgood does not specify it, but from the text I gather, it is from before the Europeans settled in India So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east? The export of blades to the west alone means, that the blade production in south and west India must have been intensive, as they, not only could equip their own armies with blades, but they also had a very big export of them, if they could dominate the Arabian market. This also means, that many of the blades we normally consider being Persian, may very well be made in India, and on arrival decorated in Persia – if that too was not made in India.

26th April 2005, 09:17 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Welcome to the forum Kiai , I believe that Jens was referring to non-keris blades in his post . On another note I have often heard of 'Sheffield keris' being exported from England to Indonesia / Philippines ; I have yet to see one though . /Enjoyed Toer's Buru Quartet , very moving and enlightening to a 20th c. Westerner .

27th April 2005, 09:04 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kiai, In the book 'Hindu Arms and Rituals' by Robert Elgood you can see stone sculptures armed with a dagger on page 122-23. Due to copyright I can't show the pictures, but the text under one of the pictures reads: Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-34) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1610.

27th April 2005, 09:59 AM	#5
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Wullungga? There's a place called Wollongong in Australia, and it's an Aboroginal name - long before the coming of the British. One possibility is that there is not enough iron in SEAsia to export. Even when making keris in the old days, people have to use the iron 'pebbles' along the beaches. I guess the scarcity of iron makes the keris more precious, and partly explains the reverence for it.

27th April 2005, 10:38 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rahman, I don't know it they had iron in the place you mention in Australia, but Australia sounds more reasonable than an African import, as iron was to be had from countries much closer than Africa. I don't know about the rest of SEAsia, but in India they had enough iron, not only for their own use, but they also exported hundreds of tons westwards each year, from the towns in the south. As the Indians also traded eastward, it is likely that the also exported iron to the rest of SEAsia. Another thing is, that the Indian iron can have been so expencive, that many had to get the iron they needed in other ways.