17th Century Pata for discussion

Runjeet Singh · 11th July 2008, 06:23 PM

Radleigh,
Congratulations on the wonderful sword!!

Bhushan,
Just my opinion, but the 1st close up bears a close resemblance to 'Vahara' the Boar incarnation of Vishnu. Note the elongated face/snout. As Bhushan has said thouth, the 2nd close up could of course be Hunumaan.

Regards,
Runjeet

bhushan_lawate · 11th July 2008, 06:28 PM

Hi,

Could be but i see a 'tail like' thing which pushes me to believe it is Hanuman.

Maybe a couple of pics could help us get more clarity.

Regards,
Bhushan

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 09:15 PM

This really is a fantastic pata Radleigh!!! and incredible condition. I think the Tanjore attribution is quite likely correct as the elaborate chiselled decoration is very much like the katar hilts. Trying to establish date on these is typically extremely difficult as the iconography, style and form remained relatively consistant for long periods and with the theme of Divine Figures in Hindu theology represented in magnificent decoration.

Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration. The understanding of the complexities of the Hindu religion is often challenging for many of us who are not of that Faith, but I have always considered all aspects of the history of India fascinating. I think Robert Elgood's book "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is great in approaching the study of these weapons from that perspective, and never ceases being a complete adventure in learning every time I focus on it. My problem has always been that of 'focus', and too often get distracted by other projects

Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 12th July 2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration ... Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated ...

Sure thing Jim,
Impecable description, Bhushan.
Fernando

olikara · 12th July 2008, 10:16 AM

The Pata does display typical Tanjore characteristics and so there is no doubt that the inspiration for the piece is from Tanjore.

But then, what do we mean when we call a piece 'Tanjore'? If we mean that it was always manufactured in the geographical region of Tanjore in South India we could be wrong. The Tanjore form of chiselled and pierced armour work was also cultivated in other centers near and around Tanjore too like Madurai (also Maratha Nayak rulers), Ginjee, Vellore, Mysore, etc.

I would put the place of origin for this particular piece as Mysore because of the prominence given to the Ganda Bherunda on the Langet. The Ganda Bherunda is a Kannada(language spoken in Mysore) word and was the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore.

Nidhi

P.S. Radleigh, a piece par excellence! Congratulations.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th July 2008, 01:29 PM

Radligh, a magnificent pata.

Bhushan and Nidhi, you have both given very interesting comments on the pata. Like Nidhi writes, the safest is to say Tanjore style, as this style was made in several places. So, although it could be from Tanjore or another place, I find Nidhi’s argument about the Ganda Bherunda being the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore for a strong one.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2008, 01:45 PM

Thank you Nidhi for your well stated and supported observations, and I agree with you and Jens wholeheartedly. It is a very good point that despite being in the style of Tanjore, the production of weapons in that style are certainly not confined to that location. It is great to have this kind of discussion on an important weapon of India, and to have this kind of definitive analysis on its decorative motif.
I sincerely hope for more of this type of discussion on the weapons posted on the forum as everyone benefits from the compiled and compatitively analyzed data, and we all learn.
Thank you so much gentlemen!
All the best,
Jim

11th July 2008, 06:23 PM	#1
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Radleigh, Congratulations on the wonderful sword!! Bhushan, Just my opinion, but the 1st close up bears a close resemblance to 'Vahara' the Boar incarnation of Vishnu. Note the elongated face/snout. As Bhushan has said thouth, the 2nd close up could of course be Hunumaan. Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

12th July 2008, 10:16 AM	#5
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Mysore The Pata does display typical Tanjore characteristics and so there is no doubt that the inspiration for the piece is from Tanjore. But then, what do we mean when we call a piece 'Tanjore'? If we mean that it was always manufactured in the geographical region of Tanjore in South India we could be wrong. The Tanjore form of chiselled and pierced armour work was also cultivated in other centers near and around Tanjore too like Madurai (also Maratha Nayak rulers), Ginjee, Vellore, Mysore, etc. I would put the place of origin for this particular piece as Mysore because of the prominence given to the Ganda Bherunda on the Langet. The Ganda Bherunda is a Kannada(language spoken in Mysore) word and was the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore. Nidhi P.S. Radleigh, a piece par excellence! Congratulations. Last edited by olikara; 12th July 2008 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Added small detail

11th July 2008, 06:28 PM	#2
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Could be but i see a 'tail like' thing which pushes me to believe it is Hanuman. Maybe a couple of pics could help us get more clarity. Regards, Bhushan

11th July 2008, 09:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	This really is a fantastic pata Radleigh!!! and incredible condition. I think the Tanjore attribution is quite likely correct as the elaborate chiselled decoration is very much like the katar hilts. Trying to establish date on these is typically extremely difficult as the iconography, style and form remained relatively consistant for long periods and with the theme of Divine Figures in Hindu theology represented in magnificent decoration. Bhushan, thank you so much for detailing the images represented in this decoration. The understanding of the complexities of the Hindu religion is often challenging for many of us who are not of that Faith, but I have always considered all aspects of the history of India fascinating. I think Robert Elgood's book "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is great in approaching the study of these weapons from that perspective, and never ceases being a complete adventure in learning every time I focus on it. My problem has always been that of 'focus', and too often get distracted by other projects Your concise and detailed description on this beautiful pata is very much appreciated. All best regards, Jim

12th July 2008, 01:29 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Radligh, a magnificent pata. Bhushan and Nidhi, you have both given very interesting comments on the pata. Like Nidhi writes, the safest is to say Tanjore style, as this style was made in several places. So, although it could be from Tanjore or another place, I find Nidhi’s argument about the Ganda Bherunda being the emblem of the Wodeyar rulers of Mysore for a strong one.

12th July 2008, 01:45 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Thank you Nidhi for your well stated and supported observations, and I agree with you and Jens wholeheartedly. It is a very good point that despite being in the style of Tanjore, the production of weapons in that style are certainly not confined to that location. It is great to have this kind of discussion on an important weapon of India, and to have this kind of definitive analysis on its decorative motif. I sincerely hope for more of this type of discussion on the weapons posted on the forum as everyone benefits from the compiled and compatitively analyzed data, and we all learn. Thank you so much gentlemen! All the best, Jim