Shamshir help needed Blade cartouche translation

[ward]

Pommel India or Persia blade probably India. Nothing Turkish here I can see might have been made up for use or put together for show hard to say

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ward

Pommel India or Persia blade probably India. Nothing Turkish here I can see might have been made up for use or put together for show hard to say

Hi Ward,

I'm certain the handle elements (scales and guard) have been on it for the better part of the last C. The pommel may be a little later but even thats been there for a long time. I do wonder if the blade was remounted or traded and the back end was recut to accomodate the rivetted handle, but the proportions feel right when you weild it, and its certainly seen a lot of action in this form.
I've restored/repaired a lot of swords, even completely made them from scratch, and I get no feel of marriage or recent work from this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly 'bigging it up' as its certainly no sultans weapon. But it does feel completely honest to me.

Have you had any more thoughts on the cartouche?

Cheers
Gene
Hers some handle close-ups.
Its basic but feels honest

[ward]

Once you handle a few of these Indo Persian Turkish Afghan whatever you see that all that gunk under the crossguard is never found on original hilting. Not saying it wasnt used in battle just hard to tell. Almost never see wood grips on this type sword and the guard has defiantly had 3 out of 4 langet cut off. Also these swords were used until at least WWII in some parts of the world so yes probably put together like this for use just not how originally done. Im just saying you dont want to rely on this as typical period example. Looks like epoxy around the guard hard to tell from pics. Are you near musuems you can examine some older ones and compare. What is length of blade in a straight line?

Ward

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ward

Once you handle a few of these Indo Persian Turkish Afghan whatever you see that all that gunk under the crossguard is never found on original hilting. Not saying it wasnt used in battle just hard to tell. Almost never see wood grips on this type sword and the guard has defiantly had 3 out of 4 langet cut off. Also these swords were used until at least WWII in some parts of the world so yes probably put together like this for use just not how originally done. Im just saying you dont want to rely on this as typical period example. Looks like epoxy around the guard hard to tell from pics. Are you near musuems you can examine some older ones and compare. What is length of blade in a straight line?

Ward

LoL, epoxy! don't be mean ;-)

The brownish crud under the guard is of the same or similar organic softish resin that all Tulwars have filling the handles. The stuff that the Afghans use to fit just about everything together with.
Definately not any kind of two part epoxy or modern resin or filler.

I know the guard looks like three have been cut off (as per the usual form), but I've seen others without the upper two (on the handle side), and I did have (from old ebay auctions a long while ago) printouts of similar swords with one of the blade side ones removed or absent. Which is why I wondered if it was a deliberate ommission or removal?
Right, size.....
From the top edge of the blade where it meets the guard, in a straight line across the curve to the tip of the blade is 69.5cm (27 1/4 inches in old money)
If you follow the curve, the blade length is 72cm which is just under 28 1/2 "

Thanks Ward


Cheers
Gene

[ward]

If its the old resin you see on tulwars that may tell you where it was done up like this but whatever they used its not typical to put it under the langets. Islamic art is all about symetry those langets were broken off or removed at some time along the way. Dont think the blade is European they did that inlay before heat treat. Length is interesting if its a little on the heavy side thats a good clue too
good luck on it