Shamshir help needed Blade cartouche translation

[Atlantia]

Just a general 'please help with any info' really.
I think its Turkish, can't translate the blade inscription, wonder if (as many I've seen) the asymetric crossguard tine is deliberate or if one is routinely removed. Date guesses?

Thanks for looking.
Gene

[ward]

I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk
Guard looks messed with like somebody took a belt grinder to it

Ward

[ariel]

The blade, with its single, wide, upper-part located fuller looks European military to me.
Signatures of KalbAli are not as frequent as his alleged father's ( Assad Ullah) simply because there was less money in faking KalbAli's moniker. Adding a signature, cartouch or "beduh" onto a European or trade blade was a venerable practice all over the Middle East.
I kinda think it is not very old ( OK , older than John McCain or yours truly!), but not older than late 19th century.

[P.Abrera]

Is the fact that the fuller runs under the guard rather than stops short of it with space for the cartouche on a flat section at the base of the blade unusual for this type of weapon?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by P.Abrera

Is the fact that the fuller runs under the guard rather than stops short of it with space for the cartouche on a flat section at the base of the blade unusual for this type of weapon?

Interesting point! I wonder if the blade has been remounted?

[TVV]

I personally do not think the hilt is Turkish.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

The blade, with its single, wide, upper-part located fuller looks European military to me.
Signatures of KalbAli are not as frequent as his alleged father's ( Assad Ullah) simply because there was less money in faking KalbAli's moniker. Adding a signature, cartouch or "beduh" onto a European or trade blade was a venerable practice all over the Middle East.
I kinda think it is not very old ( OK , older than John McCain or yours truly!), but not older than late 19th century.

I think we are thinking along similar lines Ariel,
Its a fairly 'workmanlike' good fighting sword, nothing fancy, but good steel, strong and sure.
I thought it might be Turkish military, second half 19thC.
As for the sig, as I said to Ward, I know nothing .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ward

I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk
Guard looks messed with like somebody took a belt grinder to it

Ward

Hi Ward,
Thanks, hopefully Dom will take a look.
LOL! Who's Kalb Ali?
There's no grinder marks on tha guard, I've seen several similar swords with one langet only which is why I wonderd if they were routinely removed or if these were made asymetric. The guard is thin metal and 'filled' like Tulwars are.
The patination on the side of the missing langet is not suggestive of that area having been subject to different enviromental conditions (as the other side is filled to the end).

Cheers
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ward

I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk

you are very good Ward

it's mentionned "made by Ali" .... as ... usual

the digits in the square, after reflection don't seems to me as;
- a date
- a magic square

in fact, I doubt about the autenticity of all those marks
but, it's just "my" point of view, and I'm not an expert

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

you are very good Ward

it's mentionned "made by Ali" .... as ... usual

the digits in the square, after reflection don't seems to me as;
- a date
- a magic square

in fact, I doubt about the autenticity of all those marks
but, it's just "my" point of view, and I'm not an expert

à +

Dom

Thanks Ward and Dom,

So to summarise what you have kindly figured out for me,

The Cartouche reads "amal Kalb Ali": 'work of Kalb ali'
but this may be a generic mark and not an indication of its true maker?
(as quality makers marks and names are often forged on swords)

And the Bedu is just a lucky square not a date or anything important?

We don't know exactly where its from but its probobly arabic/persian or perhaps Indian, not Turkish, and its had some reworking of the handle area done during its working life....

That about it?

Thanks
Gene

P.S
DOM! how about putting a big picture of your Khud in my 'avatars' thread, I'd love to see it!

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thanks Ward and Dom,

So to summarise what you have kindly figured out for me,

The Cartouche reads "amal Kalb Ali": 'work of Kalb ali'
but this may be a generic mark and not an indication of its true maker?
(as quality makers marks and names are often forged on swords)

Hi Gene
for me the cartouche mention only "amal Ali" either "made by Ali"
but .... Ali seems to have producing thousands or more blades ...
or may be hundred of "Ali" (sic) produced many blades
those marks could be added at any time later, not a prove of "true" ..
unfortunately

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gene
for me the cartouche mention only "amal Ali" either "made by Ali"
but .... Ali seems to have producing thousands or more blades ...
or may be hundred of "Ali" (sic) produced many blades
those marks could be added at any time later, not a prove of "true" ..
unfortunately

à +

Dom

I understand, thanks very much for your help Dom.
Even knowing what it purports to be is a huge leap from not knowing anything.

So I'm very happpy! Thanks to everyone.
Gene