Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.

You are well and truly out of your depth.

Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:-

1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear.

2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running.

3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt.

4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap)

The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine.

Count the number of words in "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" and in "Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp." Isn't the latter too much? I know Nagarakertagama is a kakawin (epic poetry)-- maybe that's the reason why the translator was pretty lax in his translation. As i said there is a malay word aris, meaning edge. Since it is a hunting expedition, kinris or kinaris would also mean put or push to the edge.

If you read the four lines you posted, why would those hunters use krises while hunting when they were on horses. Tumbak (spear) is mentioned. Malay archipelago has a tradition of spear-hunting. Kris-hunting? mmmmm I don't think so. keris was and is not a hunting weapon.


Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it.

Since your knowledge of javanese is existent, can you properly translate the four lines you posted? As i said, curiga came from khadga. Granting there is no research lapse in phonology, it is possible that aspirated Kh could evolve to ch sound or they were used interchangeably. we see such occurrence in chi and ki.

Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first.

Since you know Bahasa Indonesia, is there a traditional word with ch sound? does ch become s in your second language? Is their churiga or even suriga? You check. I will listen.

As to tewek.

I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous.

In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek.
The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment.
The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning.

The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also.

the javanese tewek is from sanskrit tuwek, meaning sword's point. Javanese is mostly Sanskrit and malay. Any weapon with sharp endpoint has a tuwek or twek. In current malay languages, there are words such as tuhuk, tuwuk, tuk, and the filipino tusok-- all are related to sharp point or stabbing. A tusok of a barbecue stick has no relation to kris. twek is part of the sword not a sword. it can also be a part of an arrow or spear.

The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon.

It can also be used with spear, sharpened pencil, and yes, barbecue stick.

A panewek is a stabbing tool.

so is the pantusok. A ballpen can be a pantusok (for stabbing).

Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly.

Tusuk-tusukan is the same thing.

Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong.

mmmmm check the sanskrit tuwek and the other malay words with the same meaning-- sharp point.

When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants.

Tell that to the postcolonial researchers.

Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about.

It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris.

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.

First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so.

Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this.


But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks?

If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through.

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so.

Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this.


But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks?

If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through.

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

I hope mr. maisey won't think that i am discrediting him. I am just offering alternative ideas.

for instance spear-hunting on a horse is pretty obvious that kris cannot be used. That's a valid idea.

I just don't think people in java long ago ran with the antelopes, deers, and wild boars wielding krises or kerises.

It is also possible that they speared them first then used the krises or kerises-- only if the animals were slaughtered in temples as sacrifices since temple swords are used even today in India for that purpose-- I just don't think keris or kris is a hunting sword.

spearing, cutting, stabbing an animal is so not an Indo-budhhist thing-- it is so anti-karma and dharma. that kind of hunting would be overkill.

I hear and read a lot about spear-hunting in malay archipelago but not kris-hunting.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

Looks like we were posting at the same time Bill. I'm just a little more long winded.
Actually, i would recommend to the "principal" that it is indeed time to close this particular classroom. I am afraid that this discussion is going no where good.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.

hmmm....here's a definition of ad hominem:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again.
Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that!

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....here's a definition of ad hominem:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again.
Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that!

ask a philosopher or philologist if this is not an argumentum ad hominem:

"You are well and truly out of your depth."

to make that a statement about an idea not a person, he could have used "your ideas" not the personal "You".

don't tell me we have to spend time on argumentum ad hominem. I don't utter anything I don't know, or ain't interested to know.