Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

TVV · 1st July 2008, 12:17 AM

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

RhysMichael · 1st July 2008, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

TVV · 1st July 2008, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

Same here - always learning.

I believe Ariel was the one who discovered the reference to the 15th century yataghan in a book called Croatian Arms. No such yataghan is mentioned in the recently published book "Zbirka Yatagana" by Dora Boskovic (who I believe has an account here but rarely visits), which is a catalogue of yataghans from the Croatian History Museum in Zagreb. Therefore, for me at least, the 15th century yataghan is more of a legend and probably the result of wrong dating.

baganing_balyan · 1st July 2008, 04:01 AM

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

David · 1st July 2008, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

This is exactly what i am talking about when i point out your incredible ability to ignore facts that fly in the face of your theories. Back in post #24 (i suggest you go back and carefully re-read all of that post) Mr. Maisey presented the following:

"In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt."

Clearly here is cited literary evidence that the word keris was in common usage in Jawa in the 14th century. Did you miss this or just choose to ignore it? It is a word which came about to describe a weapon of Jawa origin when Jawa was Hindu. The word keris may very well be older than this. The keris certainly is. Mr. Maisey also provided you with a very reasonable etymology for the word from roots in the Javanese language. Why on Earth would a Hindu Javanese culture use a Islamic influenced Turkish word to derive a name for a dagger that had so much cultural significance in Hindu Jawa?
But hey, go on, keep trying to slam that square peg of yours into that round hole.

TVV · 1st July 2008, 05:51 AM

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

baganing_balyan · 1st July 2008, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

... because it would disprove many historical conventions.

Using a genetic map, haplogroup J (for arabs) was not present in the Philippines, Sumatra, and Borneo before 1500.

baganing_balyan · 1st July 2008, 06:29 AM

can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.

RhysMichael · 1st July 2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

OK you have brought Aceh into the mix now, so I can speak on the timeline there a bit from and I hope it will help

Hindu and Buddist influence from India may have reached Aceh as early as the first century. sixth century A.D. Chinese chronicles. spoke of a kingdom on the northern tip of Sumatra named Po-Li. It is believed that Islam likely first entered the Indonesian archipelago through Aceh sometime between the 8th and 12th century. In 1292, Marco Polo, on his epic voyage from China visited Sumatra on his way to Persia and reported that in the northern part of the island there were at least six busy trading ports including Perlak, Samudera and lambri. In the middle of the 14th century, Pasai was invaded by Majapahit soldiers from Java

If you are interested there was an excellent conference on Aceh history inlcuding a paper on archeological sites of ancient trade cities that I can send you a link on

1st July 2008, 12:17 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember. In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538. I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt. However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so. Best regards, Teodor

1st July 2008, 04:01 AM	#4
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places. I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds) I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary. Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's. Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs. So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

1st July 2008, 05:51 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular? There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers. Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India. So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

1st July 2008, 06:29 AM	#8
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.