Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[RhysMichael]

baganing_balyan on your web page you say

The clean sculptural head and handle of the yatagan was the earliest handle design of the Islamic kris of the Mindanaoan Muslims. The Indo-Buddhist handle was replaced by the Turkish one. In archeology, when it comes to tools, the evolution happened from simple to complex. Compare the yatagan's handle to the kris' of Mindanao

Then you include this photo to document it


You are aware I am sure that this looks to be a modern interpretation of a yatagan, made by a contemporary smith ( Jody Samson made similar ones I think, in fact this one may well be one of his pieces. Jody Samson made movie weapons and artistic pieced but to my knowledge does not make historical reproductions, he did make one much like this that does have ears ).
Traditional yatagan I have seen have handles like the one in the photos below ( some with smaller or larger "ears" and different angles for the "ears") With this in mind I would like to know about your feelings on the similarities to the kris photo you have on your site. The traditional yatagan I have seen also have downward curving blades. Not straight or wavy blades as seen on kris. You may also want to research the dates when yatagan first came into use. I have seem some sources put that as late as the 16th century. I cannot vouch for that but there are some on here who have a great deal of knowledge on Turkish weapons and may be able to give you better information.

[baganing_balyan]

sorry double posts.

[baganing_balyan]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.



Dating krises is really problematic. Without the use of carbon-dating, we can only get estimates, and sound estimation can only be done if the survey of krises is counducted according to groups. Sulu krises should be treated as one group and lanao's as another one, and so on and so forth.

Another proof of Turkish and Tausug's meeting of cultures:

There is a dance in sabah popular among tausugs (or suluk) called daling-daling-- it is a combination of arabic belly-dancing and indian classical dance. Not only did sarimanok motif come from turkey, daling-daling too was influenced by the turkish belly-dancing called chiftetelli.

I just compared the musical beats and dance movements in both dance forms, the similarities are pretty obvious.

I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

I am not questioning that there have been Trukish Travelers to that area. I would take that as a given. I would question if by the date suggested on your for the meeting would be a time when the yatagan was in use by the ottomans

The Ottomans reached India in late 1300's. It is possible that they reached Mindanao too, particularly sulu.

I would also expect that the profile shot of the yatagan from Burton ( fig 122) would show "ears" if drawn from a different angle. Fig 123 does indeed show the "ears".

Has there ever been evidence of "ears" on Kris. If not based on the profile alone of the hilt I could easily find several other swords with the same similar profile.

[RhysMichael]

While it was 50 years later, all of the yatagan Stones Glossary show "ears". Lord Edgerton of Tatton ( 1880 ) Only shows a Kyber knife and references it as a "Salawar Yatagan" and the profile of that hilt would bear a very similar profile to the one in Bruttons book though they are very different swords. Pictures of Turkish Yatagan in "Islamic Arms" from the Victoria and Albert museum show "ears". As do the photos of Yatagan in "Ancient Weapons from the collection of the state history museum Moscow ". I am in no way claiming all yatagan have ears. I am sure we can find examples without but I am saying I believe the lateral protrusions were the norm.

[TVV]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by TVV

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

Same here - always learning.

I believe Ariel was the one who discovered the reference to the 15th century yataghan in a book called Croatian Arms. No such yataghan is mentioned in the recently published book "Zbirka Yatagana" by Dora Boskovic (who I believe has an account here but rarely visits), which is a catalogue of yataghans from the Croatian History Museum in Zagreb. Therefore, for me at least, the 15th century yataghan is more of a legend and probably the result of wrong dating.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

This illustration that Baganing has linked to reminds me of the old story of the blind men and the elephant. How each one, capable of limited senses, describes what the elephant is by very limited contact with very specific parts of the beast. No single blind man is able to get a full grasp of the animal they are examining. This 2-dimensional drawing from Burton's book does not really give us a completely accurate idea of the overall shape of the yagatan hilt. From this angle we see some similarity to the Moro kakatau pommel, but seen in 3-dimensions the similarities diminish greatly. I seriously doubt that the yagatan hilt did or could have influenced the development of the kakatau pommel. And seen from multiple sides i don't get the impression that the yagatan hilt was ever meant to be the stylized bird head that the kakatau pommels seem to be (though like the keris tajong hilt, maybe it's not meant to be a bird at all ).
Baganing, your project is both interesting and ambitious. However, you cannot just pick and choose the evidence that supports your theories and throw the rest away. No one is going to take that kind of research seriously. I know that personally i am always open to new discoveries and more than willing to see old paradigms toppled in the face of overwhelming new evidence. But what you present is just too easy to pick away at. It has no substance. Maybe you need to do just a little more field research yourself. It doesn't seem that you have even handled any old yagatans before developing this theory. You also admit to knowing very little about Malay keris. But this is obviously the origin of the Moro kris/kalis/sundang so maybe it would serve your research well if you spent a few years examining the history and roots of the keris before rushing to conclusions on the origins of the kris/kalis. The study of Malay keris is truly a lifetime's undertaking, but a little study might give you firmer ground on which to set your theories.
"I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt."
This is the the wisest thing you have posted so far. I don't think anyone here would argue with this. I would encourage you to continue in this quest. Unfortunately you will never accomplish this if you continue to disregard ideas and evidence when it fails to support your own theories.... or to disregard or disrespect other researcher and their questions to you when they disagree with what you want the truth to be.