Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Ms Baganing, you'll have to do better than reference to your memory. I need the image to which you refer. I cannot identify the relevant relief from your vague recollection.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

How've you been Ron? Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.

[Lew]

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew

[RhysMichael]

baganing_balyan on your web page you say

The clean sculptural head and handle of the yatagan was the earliest handle design of the Islamic kris of the Mindanaoan Muslims. The Indo-Buddhist handle was replaced by the Turkish one. In archeology, when it comes to tools, the evolution happened from simple to complex. Compare the yatagan's handle to the kris' of Mindanao

Then you include this photo to document it


You are aware I am sure that this looks to be a modern interpretation of a yatagan, made by a contemporary smith ( Jody Samson made similar ones I think, in fact this one may well be one of his pieces. Jody Samson made movie weapons and artistic pieced but to my knowledge does not make historical reproductions, he did make one much like this that does have ears ).
Traditional yatagan I have seen have handles like the one in the photos below ( some with smaller or larger "ears" and different angles for the "ears") With this in mind I would like to know about your feelings on the similarities to the kris photo you have on your site. The traditional yatagan I have seen also have downward curving blades. Not straight or wavy blades as seen on kris. You may also want to research the dates when yatagan first came into use. I have seem some sources put that as late as the 16th century. I cannot vouch for that but there are some on here who have a great deal of knowledge on Turkish weapons and may be able to give you better information.

[baganing_balyan]

sorry double posts.

[baganing_balyan]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.



Dating krises is really problematic. Without the use of carbon-dating, we can only get estimates, and sound estimation can only be done if the survey of krises is counducted according to groups. Sulu krises should be treated as one group and lanao's as another one, and so on and so forth.

Another proof of Turkish and Tausug's meeting of cultures:

There is a dance in sabah popular among tausugs (or suluk) called daling-daling-- it is a combination of arabic belly-dancing and indian classical dance. Not only did sarimanok motif come from turkey, daling-daling too was influenced by the turkish belly-dancing called chiftetelli.

I just compared the musical beats and dance movements in both dance forms, the similarities are pretty obvious.

I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt.

[David]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew

Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya?
What you say here is undoubtable true and it was the point i was trying to make much early when i brought up the fact that you can find this type of thing often on eBay. I never meant to imply, as Baganing took it, that eBay was a good place to research blades, just saying that these are much more likely to be sold to "those who travel for pleasure". But these relatively new style of long punal have nothing to do with the great history of the various Moro tribes and their weapons. As you state, you would never seen a Moro Datu or warrior with anything like this in early photographs. This style just did not exist before WWII. If it is called a kris by the present culture it is only because they have forgotten the quality and power that the kris once represented. I am talking about the weapon (and the warrior) that forced the U.S. Army to develop .45 caliber Colt. I have a sneaky suspicion that these stylized punals wouldn't be too effective in battle.

[Lew]

[QUOTE=David]Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya?


David

I wish that twisted core puppy were mine. I am basically down to one Moro kris and one barong now I am concentrating on other areas besides kris/keris at present. I would get a bit bored with collecting only one type weapon have to keep it fresh. Jack of all trades master of none that's me.

Lew

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Andrew

How've you been Ron? Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.

hehe, haven't really hit the water much this year, save for the artificial Flowrider. hopefully this winter. hawaii should be crankin' hard...

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

I am aware of this. That is why i wrote "most" in my post.
I will also go out on a limb here and state that most of these new kris are merely a shadow to the quality of old Moro swordsmithing.

[Andrew]

Let's keep this thread civil, please. Baganing, in particular, some of your posts have been obnoxious. If you want to continue posting here, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

[David]

I would just like to add a word about similarity of form. In the world there are just so many shapes. Every culture has a fascination and deep seated mythologies about birds. They are often used as motifs in all of these cultures and when stylized the similarities become even stronger. As a trained percussionist i have often marveled at the similarities between the ritual rhythms of various cultures spread all across the globe. I was recently noting a rhythm in some Indonesian music that sounds very much like one i know that originated in the Congo. There are, infact, root rhythms that transcend all cultures. This is not because these cultures have had contact with each other. It is merely the nature of things.
Someone just recently pointed out the pyamid at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh.
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory...

[Bill]

Originally Posted by David

Someone just recently pointed out the at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh.
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory...

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

In addition, y-chromosome haplogroup P is found in Java, south america, carribean, egypt, and other places where there are pyramids. It has been a well-established theory that pyramid builders in the ancient times were also sea-faring people.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

Thanks for the link. I am primarily interested in the relationship between the turks and aceh in sixteenth century. Turling wrote about such relationship.

I have no doubt that Islamic arabs from middle east reached the malay archipelago, but dna mapping suggests that they did not last long for their haplogroups did not take root in the malay archipelago.

Maybe they are just traders or traveling missionaries or even ancient tourists like ibn batuta.

Early yatagans have no anka pommels, but the blades were inlaid with gold and jewels using anka motif. Later when the yatagans got anka pommels, the inlaid bird motifs, generally, could no longer be found on the blade.

the yatagan of suleiman the magnificent is the good example.