Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so.
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so.
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i.

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

I am aware of this. That is why i wrote "most" in my post.
I will also go out on a limb here and state that most of these new kris are merely a shadow to the quality of old Moro swordsmithing.

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

[baganing_balyan]

double post

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

I have a limited knowledge about malaysian and Indonesian keris.

I don't know if my memory serves me right. One relief is a row of monkeys-- one is holding a kris-like sword and the other, a tulwar.

the second image is a kris-like sword held by a bird-man maybe garuda

[Alam Shah]

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing?
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing?
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

Su: The Edge of Water

For the DNA, I am lucky that i don't have to do it. A university back home is doing their human genome project on all ethnic groups. I'll just wait for their data. Turkey has already profiled the genetic make up of the turkish people.

I am primarily interested of the Tausugs because they were the first to be Islamized by the Arab missionaries in late 1300's.

[Alam Shah]

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details?

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details?

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

They will find out your haplotype and the haplogroup where you belong. I am not a geneticist, but I can analyze the genetic data in relation to geographical peopling.

It's very technical and confusing to explain Y-DNA and mtDNA tests. I leave that to the geneticists to explain.

Y-DNA will tell you about the ancestor of your father. mtDNA will tell you where the ancestor of your mother came from. Now since you are multi-cultural, it would be a long work before you'll get the full picture.

it's like building a family tree but instead of names, you use haplotypes and haplogroups.

when it comes to research, I am not interested of a person's haplotype but his haplogroup.

For Instance I am interested to find out how many haplogroups present in sulu and compare if the same haplogroups are present in borneo and sumatra. If they are the same, it means, the migration pattern and the peopling are the same.

for example, philippines has rxr1, a haplogroup not seen in sumatra and borneo. Upon checking rxr1, the haplogroup that can be traced back to the cameroons of africa, I can then assume that indeed the theory about the early migration of the negritos (dark-skinned proto-filipinos) is indeed correct. As a matter of fact, we have african-looking ethno-linguistic groups in the philippines.

After knowing that rxr1 is non-existent in borneo and sumatra, you can infer a lot of things:

1) by using a world map, you can see that cameroon, southern India (dravidians), and Philippines are geogrpahically parallel to each other and they all have rxr1. The early migration must have missed sumatra and borneo. This also proves that dark-skined dravidians or tamils did reach the philippines in ancient times.

2) since australian aborigines have rxr1, where did it come from. It can't be from India since it had to pass sumatra and borneo. There are two possibilities: it must be direct from cameroon or from the philippines-- Southern Mindanao (davao Region) in particular. I won't wonder. there are aetas, dark-skinned groups, in the region.

So many possibilities. So many historical conventions to prove and disprove using the genetic map before 1500.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.

It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:-

tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap

"kinris" means "to stab with a keris"

the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers.

There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text.

I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself.

In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar.

Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder?

Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century.

I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility.

I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.

It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:-

tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap

"kinris" means "to stab with a keris"

the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers.

I suggest that you read the lines before and after "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" then translate them to English. Then understand the essence of the lines. "aris" is a malay word too for edge, so kinaris or kinris would also mean "put to edge or turn to edge." There is also a sanskrit word karis (to do). tamil also has kari or karis for sauce or soup. I am interested to know if the line you cut is actually about food.

There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text.


I don't think the curiga with C that sounds like ch is correct.
That javanese word is obviously from the sanskrit khadga (sword) with an aspirated K. I have a hunch that the linguist who studied the old javanese could not pronounce the aspirated kh sound since it was/is a rare one, if he/she was european or american, so he/she used the ch sound which was/is linguistically common.

I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself.

I stand by my analysis of twek-- in analyzing a word, to truly understand it, trace its origin and how it evolved into a new word. In this case, include sanskrit and malay languages in dealing with twek.

In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar.

twek is not a sword. Its use is metaphorical for masculinity.

Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder?

I am really interested of a native javanese studying her or his own language. French and German, if those were their linguistic nationalities, are just not equipped to mimic the sounds of sanskrit and old javanese.

Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century.

I would love to read that tenth century text.

I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility.

Thanks. I don't waste my time on something I don't know. when i say something, it's because i have a basis.

I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp.

I will never refrain from rethinking and reconsidering the old works of the colonialists and orientalists.

ask an american or european if he can say an aspirated K with H. I bet either one will end up producing the ch sound. That my friend is the linguistic subtlety only native speakers can detect.

I am more confident of kuriga than curiga with ch sound because kuriga entered in the filipino languages as kuliga (poke or stick in).

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

Yep, i read them, but i must have missed it the first time through. I came across it on the second viewing after googling "katik" and being brought back to the article, but by then you had already answered the question. Of course you have left so many more of my direct questions to you unanswered. I am not sure why this is. If you don't have an answer for these questions you can just say so.