Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

LOL!
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

this is what you wrote on 107. I assume this is your definition of kris.

"Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form."

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?

even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.

there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.

to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?
even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.
there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.
to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

I know we talked about krises in Mindanao, but i showed you some reasons why krises in mindanao vary in designs, materials, symbolism, etc.

you have to take into account the geography, resources, community development, etc of each muslim group.

Samals for instance who are known as sea people incorporate cultural geography in their weaponry-- they use shells and pearls as ornaments on handles and sheaths.

The krises of the kalagans are primitive compared to the ones found in lanao, sulu, and maguindanao. Why is it the case?

kalagans were originally lumads before they became muslims. krises are recent in their culture, hence, the simplicity of their krises compared to the well-established and developed ones.

[David]

A kris is a kris. It is unique to the world of edged weapons because of the way it is designed. There are many other blades in the world, some curvy, some not. Someone, somewhere might recognize some of these blades (especially the wavy ones) as kris in our modern times. I do not.
Your post is pretty much a repetition of things you have already stated. You did not answer my questions, but that seems to be a part of you own unique style.