Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 01:01 AM

David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25.

But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly.

Who am I to argue?

I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 01:10 AM

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

David · 30th June 2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

I have a news for you too. I don't intend to straighten out people. I am more interested of letting my alternative ideas out so people have the chance to rethink and choose what to believe. if theya re openminded, they might straighten out themselves and respect other people's culture.

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

David · 30th June 2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

LOL!

I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert.

I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

LOL!

I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert.

I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

this is what you wrote on 107. I assume this is your definition of kris.

"Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form."

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?

even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.

there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.

to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

David · 30th June 2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?
even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.
there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.
to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 01:51 AM

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

Battara · 30th June 2008, 01:57 AM

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 02:10 AM

Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game".

The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community.

Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses.

The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name.

People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name.

People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names.

What do you use to cut through a field?

What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 02:21 AM

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

David · 30th June 2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility.

Battara · 30th June 2008, 01:40 AM

As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best.

I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me.

To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear.

When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick.

Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.

30th June 2008, 01:01 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25. But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly. Who am I to argue? I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

30th June 2008, 01:10 AM	#2
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts. If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

30th June 2008, 01:51 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment. The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field. However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed. Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established. Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established. But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris. My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika". Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently. Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

30th June 2008, 01:57 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

30th June 2008, 02:10 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game". The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community. Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses. The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name. People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name. People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names. What do you use to cut through a field? What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

30th June 2008, 02:21 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Goodness gracious me! Against my will I have been drawn into this. Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris. To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris. Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris? Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

30th June 2008, 01:40 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best. I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me. To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear. When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick. Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.