Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

True enough Alan, true enough.
It does seem, however, that since Ms. Baganing is not willing to accept the combined knowledge of this forum, and since most of us here are having some problem with her theories and ideas, that perhaps she is wasting her great wealth of knowledge on us, the unwashed and uneducated collectors, and perhaps she might do better to move on to some other more academic forum where her ideas will be better received. In the meantime, i also eagerly await the publishing of her book. I am sure it will be the talk of the community once it is finally published.

[baganing_balyan]

the problem with kris researchers is that they don't conduct ethnography.

Some of them even think moro is a single group of people. I am not even sure if they have a 19th century map of moro province. That's important so they would know moros have no homogenous culture, social development, resources, language, etc. Geography dictates culture.

I don't intend to preach in front of a choir. I don't even intend of preachign at all. I am into sharing ideas-- theoretical or not-- so those who cling to conventions will have a moment to rethink. Rethinking is a good thing. If one or two do that hear, then my effort is not in vain, and I would not be alone.

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.

Sorry, you need to show me how ALL the links i posted have problematic historiography and why. Just saying this is meaningless and doesn't make it so. And no one here uses eBay to do their research. When i mentioned eBay before it was merely to point out that the longer punals that your friend in yellow is showing are a relatively new form that one can often find for sale on eBay. Please don't twist my words against me. Everyone knows my intention in even mentioning eBay, and it certainly wasn't to suggest that it was in any way a legitimate source for research.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25.

But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly.

Who am I to argue?

I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

[baganing_balyan]

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

I have a news for you too. I don't intend to straighten out people. I am more interested of letting my alternative ideas out so people have the chance to rethink and choose what to believe. if theya re openminded, they might straighten out themselves and respect other people's culture.

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

LOL!
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

LOL!
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

this is what you wrote on 107. I assume this is your definition of kris.

"Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form."

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?

even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.

there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.

to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

[A. G. Maisey]

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

[Battara]

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

[A. G. Maisey]

Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game".

The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community.

Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses.

The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name.

People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name.

People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names.

What do you use to cut through a field?

What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility.

[Battara]

As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best.

I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me.

To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear.

When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick.

Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.