Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

that's very patronizing. I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

That's why I want to involve science in my research so nobody can accuse me of making up stuff. you cannot make up genealogy and genetics.

There are just too many stuff to change. I hope i can do that in my lifetime. I am not saying that I haven't learned from you. I even said that mine is just a seminal idea that will hopefully interest serious researchers to look into.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

that's not the case.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.
that's not the case.

Just one more question. Have you taken the time yet to use the search function on this site for words like "Kris", "Moro", "Mindanao", "Punal", "Kalis", "Sundang", etc, etc, etc to find out what this group of people might collectively think about these subjects or are you justr running on you preconceived ideas of what people in general think based on your esxperience in martial arts and other forums and life in general?
You really have no idea what we think, do you?

[kai]

Hello Miya,

that's very patronizing.

I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.

I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons.

Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...

I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miya,


I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.



Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds.



Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...


Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

Yes, I am a lumad and mindanaoan. I started researching mindanao weapons since I was in college, ten years ago, after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate, and it's not a definite term.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate

Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miya,


Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?



Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.



Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?



Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

let's not go into the issue on sabah. People of sulawesi were also called moros.

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

People of sulawesi were also called moros.

By Spanish explorers/colonialists? Sure - as just about any darker-skinned or possibly just sun-tanned ethnic group of Muslim faith worldwide. Some other western colonial powers may also have picked up the term and used it.

That doesn't preclude that during later days the term may have been applied more selectively and finally also embraced by the very ethnic groups to which the name got first applied by ignorant foreigners.

That's like Christians embracing and using a name for themselves and their religion which originally got coined by enemies and used in a pejorative manner at best...

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

Well, not all peoples of the US Moro province were Moro either. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be any legitimate Moro outside any political entity called "Moroland" or whatever: There are Malay outside Malaysia, etc.

Regards,
Kai