Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[A. G. Maisey]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

that's very patronizing. I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

That's why I want to involve science in my research so nobody can accuse me of making up stuff. you cannot make up genealogy and genetics.

There are just too many stuff to change. I hope i can do that in my lifetime. I am not saying that I haven't learned from you. I even said that mine is just a seminal idea that will hopefully interest serious researchers to look into.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

that's not the case.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.
that's not the case.

Just one more question. Have you taken the time yet to use the search function on this site for words like "Kris", "Moro", "Mindanao", "Punal", "Kalis", "Sundang", etc, etc, etc to find out what this group of people might collectively think about these subjects or are you justr running on you preconceived ideas of what people in general think based on your esxperience in martial arts and other forums and life in general?
You really have no idea what we think, do you?

[kai]

Hello Miya,

that's very patronizing.

I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.

I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons.

Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...

I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miya,


I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.



Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds.



Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...


Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

Yes, I am a lumad and mindanaoan. I started researching mindanao weapons since I was in college, ten years ago, after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate, and it's not a definite term.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate

Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miya,


Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?



Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.



Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?



Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

let's not go into the issue on sabah. People of sulawesi were also called moros.

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

People of sulawesi were also called moros.

By Spanish explorers/colonialists? Sure - as just about any darker-skinned or possibly just sun-tanned ethnic group of Muslim faith worldwide. Some other western colonial powers may also have picked up the term and used it.

That doesn't preclude that during later days the term may have been applied more selectively and finally also embraced by the very ethnic groups to which the name got first applied by ignorant foreigners.

That's like Christians embracing and using a name for themselves and their religion which originally got coined by enemies and used in a pejorative manner at best...

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

Well, not all peoples of the US Moro province were Moro either. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be any legitimate Moro outside any political entity called "Moroland" or whatever: There are Malay outside Malaysia, etc.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

True enough Alan, true enough.
It does seem, however, that since Ms. Baganing is not willing to accept the combined knowledge of this forum, and since most of us here are having some problem with her theories and ideas, that perhaps she is wasting her great wealth of knowledge on us, the unwashed and uneducated collectors, and perhaps she might do better to move on to some other more academic forum where her ideas will be better received. In the meantime, i also eagerly await the publishing of her book. I am sure it will be the talk of the community once it is finally published.

[baganing_balyan]

the problem with kris researchers is that they don't conduct ethnography.

Some of them even think moro is a single group of people. I am not even sure if they have a 19th century map of moro province. That's important so they would know moros have no homogenous culture, social development, resources, language, etc. Geography dictates culture.

I don't intend to preach in front of a choir. I don't even intend of preachign at all. I am into sharing ideas-- theoretical or not-- so those who cling to conventions will have a moment to rethink. Rethinking is a good thing. If one or two do that hear, then my effort is not in vain, and I would not be alone.

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.

Sorry, you need to show me how ALL the links i posted have problematic historiography and why. Just saying this is meaningless and doesn't make it so. And no one here uses eBay to do their research. When i mentioned eBay before it was merely to point out that the longer punals that your friend in yellow is showing are a relatively new form that one can often find for sale on eBay. Please don't twist my words against me. Everyone knows my intention in even mentioning eBay, and it certainly wasn't to suggest that it was in any way a legitimate source for research.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25.

But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly.

Who am I to argue?

I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

[baganing_balyan]

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

I have a news for you too. I don't intend to straighten out people. I am more interested of letting my alternative ideas out so people have the chance to rethink and choose what to believe. if theya re openminded, they might straighten out themselves and respect other people's culture.

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

LOL!
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

[A. G. Maisey]

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

[Battara]

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility.

[Battara]

As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best.

I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me.

To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear.

When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick.

Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.