Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

David · 26th June 2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.

I am afraid that the timeline does not support your belief. When do you think the keris was actually developed in Jawa? It was long before the Ottoman and Islamic expansion. Why then would it have originally had a name that is derived from a Turkish source. Sorry, you aren't making sense to me.

baganing_balyan · 26th June 2008, 02:33 PM

keris, the sword, was already in Java during the rule of srivijayan empire.

Keris, the term, is the most problematic one. It has no etymology in sanskrit, hindi, or Tamil. So I am not really sure if it was also an Indo-Buddhist word.

That's why I said I am not sure because I have limited materials. However, I believe people began to use keris as a word around 1400, and before that, it had an indo-buddhist name-- maybe naga, curiga, or even kali-- I wish I could be sure. It's up to a serious researcher to look into it.

I even want to believe that keris came from kurusooli (Tamil short snake), then kurusu, then keris. Linguistically, that is an overstretch. Who knows? maybe there is evidence hiding somewhere.

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2008, 02:36 PM

The proto-keris that we now refer to as the "Keris Buda" first appeared in monumental representations in 10th century Central Jawa.

By about the 14th century it had developed to the form that we know today.

In early Javanese literary works a number of different words are used to refer to the keris. Amongst these words we can find keris(or kris), curigo ( a literary usage), tewek (or twek), tuhuk, duhun, kadgo, panewek.

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Old Javanese there are a number of words that are associated with the keris:-

akris:- to wear or use a keris
anris and kinris:- to use a keris

then we have:- iris, hiris, aniris, iniris and kahiris, all of which can be understood as to cut or to slice.

taking account of the grammatic structure of Old Javanese there is a clear relationship between the word "iris":- to cut, and keris, a cutting weapon.

It may be argued that the keris is not a cutting weapon, but a stabbing weapon, however, in Old Javanese the distinction between the keris used as a cutting weapon, and the keris used as a stabbing weapon is shown by the use of "tewek", probably in the context of repeated stabbing. On the other hand, thrusts, or slower stabs appear to be denoted by use of the word "tuhuk". When the inference is to the keris as a cutting weapon, then only the word "kris" ( or a derivative) is used. The words used to refer to the keris in Old Javanese give an indication of the nature of the keris in the relative context. A similarity can be seen in the words used to refer to the keris in modern Javanese, where again, an indication is given by the word used, as to the nature of the keris in the relative context.

During the period of development of the keris to its modern form, Jawa was dominated by the Jawa-Hindu faith, which was not displaced by Islam until about 1400. Early Islamic penetration of Jawa did not come from Turkey, but was thought to have been principally from India and China, with some limited numbers of traders from Persia and surrounding areas.

In the 17th century there was certainly some contact between the court of Mataram and Turkey, but the word "kris" and its derivatives had already been in common use in Jawa for at least several hundred years by that time.

The word "kris", or "keris" is without any doubt at all an indigenous Javanese word, and did not enter the Javanese language from any middle eastern language.

baganing, I'm sorry, but your thinking is confused, your presentation is illogical, and you have not yet carried your research far enough, nor in the correct direction.

I do encourage you to continue your research; your approach is valid, your thoughts are original, but you do need to work harder at getting the connections and the logic right.

baganing_balyan · 26th June 2008, 03:20 PM

14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area.

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.

Bill · 26th June 2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.

Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.

David · 26th June 2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.

Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?

baganing_balyan · 26th June 2008, 07:10 PM

thanks for the suggestions and advices.

Bill · 26th June 2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?

No, I've not lost interest but also don't have the energy for the effort. It is interesting that Alan is in this tread as the Australians seem to have a strong interest in the Bugis culture. The claim is, the texts go back to about 1300 & deal primarily with genealogy but give good insight to the culture. Ian Caldwell refers to the different texts in his work. The Bugis by Christian Pelras (French) has a great book about the culture, refers to the texts & has quite a bit about metal working, even going into the legend of how metal smithing started on Sulawesi. I've bought some of the working papers from Monash University/Australia that refer to the texts. While I'm sure all the texts would be interesting, there likely is only dots & dashes about keris/kris & the folks that research these texts don't have that as their focus.

baganing_balyan · 26th June 2008, 08:55 PM

Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans. Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century. In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.

26th June 2008, 03:20 PM	#4
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area. Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia. Last edited by baganing_balyan; 26th June 2008 at 06:46 PM.

26th June 2008, 02:33 PM	#2
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	keris, the sword, was already in Java during the rule of srivijayan empire. Keris, the term, is the most problematic one. It has no etymology in sanskrit, hindi, or Tamil. So I am not really sure if it was also an Indo-Buddhist word. That's why I said I am not sure because I have limited materials. However, I believe people began to use keris as a word around 1400, and before that, it had an indo-buddhist name-- maybe naga, curiga, or even kali-- I wish I could be sure. It's up to a serious researcher to look into it. I even want to believe that keris came from kurusooli (Tamil short snake), then kurusu, then keris. Linguistically, that is an overstretch. Who knows? maybe there is evidence hiding somewhere.

26th June 2008, 02:36 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	The proto-keris that we now refer to as the "Keris Buda" first appeared in monumental representations in 10th century Central Jawa. By about the 14th century it had developed to the form that we know today. In early Javanese literary works a number of different words are used to refer to the keris. Amongst these words we can find keris(or kris), curigo ( a literary usage), tewek (or twek), tuhuk, duhun, kadgo, panewek. The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma. In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt. In Old Javanese there are a number of words that are associated with the keris:- akris:- to wear or use a keris anris and kinris:- to use a keris then we have:- iris, hiris, aniris, iniris and kahiris, all of which can be understood as to cut or to slice. taking account of the grammatic structure of Old Javanese there is a clear relationship between the word "iris":- to cut, and keris, a cutting weapon. It may be argued that the keris is not a cutting weapon, but a stabbing weapon, however, in Old Javanese the distinction between the keris used as a cutting weapon, and the keris used as a stabbing weapon is shown by the use of "tewek", probably in the context of repeated stabbing. On the other hand, thrusts, or slower stabs appear to be denoted by use of the word "tuhuk". When the inference is to the keris as a cutting weapon, then only the word "kris" ( or a derivative) is used. The words used to refer to the keris in Old Javanese give an indication of the nature of the keris in the relative context. A similarity can be seen in the words used to refer to the keris in modern Javanese, where again, an indication is given by the word used, as to the nature of the keris in the relative context. During the period of development of the keris to its modern form, Jawa was dominated by the Jawa-Hindu faith, which was not displaced by Islam until about 1400. Early Islamic penetration of Jawa did not come from Turkey, but was thought to have been principally from India and China, with some limited numbers of traders from Persia and surrounding areas. In the 17th century there was certainly some contact between the court of Mataram and Turkey, but the word "kris" and its derivatives had already been in common use in Jawa for at least several hundred years by that time. The word "kris", or "keris" is without any doubt at all an indigenous Javanese word, and did not enter the Javanese language from any middle eastern language. baganing, I'm sorry, but your thinking is confused, your presentation is illogical, and you have not yet carried your research far enough, nor in the correct direction. I do encourage you to continue your research; your approach is valid, your thoughts are original, but you do need to work harder at getting the connections and the logic right.

26th June 2008, 07:10 PM	#7
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	thanks for the suggestions and advices.

26th June 2008, 08:55 PM	#9
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans. Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century. In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.