The basics of keris understanding?

Jussi M. · 25th June 2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

OK, this analogy might be a bit of a stretch, but it is entertaining:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J4oKXagF3IE
Like Kai i find myself a bit of an alien from space in the keris world. I am fascinated by it, and read and study and try to understand it, but being so outside of the culture as i am it is difficult to know whether or not i truly grasp the finer details of what i am studying. But like the pope in the Monty Python sketch, "i may not know art, but i know what i like". The only problem with this attitude is that in the context of keris culture what i like could well be absolutely wrong.

What i am personally trying to understand is what is "correct" for, say, a Jawa keris from the Javanese perspective or a Bali keris from the Balinese perspective and so forth. I would be more than happy to put forth a list of things that i find important or not about keris, but it will certainly be skewed towards my decidedly Western perspective. This could make for very interesting discussion, but i am not sure it is the information that Jussi is seeking.

The Pythons are awesome

To answer your question regarding the information I am seeking for, well, maybe we should first decide what we mean by "understanding" on this context? - I guess we all can lay down our personal reference points regarding how we judge something as a worthy keris or not for our own collections but that is just subjective opinion, "nothing" else. So, I guess I am looking for information that helps me to better understand "what is "correct" for, say, a Jawa keris from the Javanese perspective or a Bali keris from the Balinese perspective and so forth", as you put it. Alan has suggested that we could began from the perspective of art, I think that is as a good point to start as any?

Best,

J

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2008, 12:17 AM

Kai, to a degree, you are correct in what you say, but there are many levels upon which we can understand the keris.

Similarly, the keris has many natures. In the old literary works we read about animals being krissed during a hunt. In historical accounts we read of a Madurese ruler getting a bit upset during a sea voyage on a Dutch vessel, and krissing a few people.In the babads we read of the people of Bali being overawed when shown a particular keris. It goes on. And on. And on.

Lots of different types and natures and characters of keris. Lots of things to understand about keris.

For a collector in the western world, David's approach of "do I like it" is probably more than sufficient to guide the building of a collection. After all, the collector is the person who needs to live with the keris, not somebody else, and if he doesn't like the keris, no matter how good some expert might tell him it is, then he's probably better to get rid of it.

However, when we push past that essentially personal approach, and we seek to come to terms with the way in which other people in other places and at other times may have thought about the keris, we have gone past the persona of a simple collector, and we have become a student.

No student can claim to be a student unless he is prepared to study.

Thus, the understanding of anything, including the keris needs to be rooted in study.

Lets move a little away from keris, and consider something a little bit more a part of our own world. Lets think about economics.

A 16 year old high school student might have some small understanding of economics, however, when he enters university and begins to study for his BA in economics, he finds that a whole new world has opened up to him. Now, this first or second year uni student is guided by a professor who completed his own Phd perhaps 20 years ago. The professor's knowledge and understanding of economics is formidable, and has gone past the level of simple mechanics and entered the sphere of philosophy.

Does this professor attempt to teach all of what he knows to the new student in his first year?

No, of course he does not, because the new student will not understand what he is being taught.

As the student advances with his study he will understand more and more, and his questions will indicate to his teachers the level of knowledge that he is ready to receive.

Eventually this student will perhaps complete his own Phd, and will have achieved a very high level of understanding of economics.

However, his understanding could well be a different understanding to the understanding of his professor when he first began his studies.

What I am saying here is that there is no easy way to achieve understanding, and no understanding can be universally accepted as the "correct" understanding. In order to achieve any level of understanding that understanding must be rooted in study.

In the case of the keris the study that must be carried out embraces the fields of culture, sociology, religion, history, art, literature, archeology, technology---just to mention the more obvious ones.

However, with all that said, it is still possible to achieve at least two things:-

1) an understanding of various facets of the keris as that understanding applies at this point in time

2) an understanding that other people, living in a different cultural context to our own, may have an understanding that varies from our own:- we may not be able to understand in the same way that these others do, but we can understand that they understand.

This subject definitely does not fall into the "too hard basket". But it does require some mental effort to explore it. If the mental effort is deemed not to be worth the potential result, then the obvious course of action is simply not to think.

On the other hand---

Jussi M. · 29th January 2009, 03:57 PM

Up!

Greetings. Thought of reviving this thread with the hope it would get more attention than it did last year. Mr. Maisey as well as some others have mentioned that both time and place are of great importance in understanding the keris. My question now is, is there a known lineage of designs that can be put onto a timeline of different Javanese kerises? Something like this:

I do not mean to reinvent the Tangguh system. What I am after is a simple timeline with the development of the major designs. Does this exist and if it doesnt, can it be formulated?

Thanks,

J

Rick · 29th January 2009, 06:37 PM

Jussi, I believe there is a timeline of sorts ; getting all to agree on when and where could be problematic though .

Where would we start ?
When should we start ?
Majahpahit ?
Candi Sukuh carvings ?
India ?

We will need what is called a 'Fog Knife' here in New England, to cut through the haze of time ..

ganjawulung · 30th January 2009, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

...My question now is, is there a known lineage of designs that can be put onto a timeline of different Javanese kerises? ...

I do not mean to reinvent the Tangguh system. What I am after is a simple timeline with the development of the major designs. Does this exist and if it doesnt, can it be formulated?

Dear Jussi,

(I try to respond this interesting question, in my limited ability in expressing English)
I hope, yes there is. But we must work hard to draw this timeline of the development of the major design in Javanese kerises, by ourselves..

Why workhard? Because sometimes we must draw more than two different major designs in one time frame. Tuban style -- for instance. Kerises which were made by Tuban keris makers, or empus (located around Surabaya now), they are (supposed to have) different styles depending on the location of the making and the time frame: Tuban Pajajaran (by Tuban empus in West Jawa, in Pajajaran era), Tuban Majapahit (in East Java, in Majapahit era), Tuban Mataram etc... Say it, Tuban keris makers migrated to certain centers of power at certain time frame to earn their lives...

So the timeline must be based on certain center of powers in the past, for instance -- timeline of design in Pajajaran (West Jawa -- before 13 century), or even Segaluh (older than Pajajaran). Timeline of Cirebon design in the north coast of West-Central Java (14-15th century), Banten Design in West Java, Demak design in the north coast of Central Java etc... Cirebon-Demak and then Banten, developped in almost one time frame -- Islamic era in the northern coast and west Java

Where do we begin the time line? I don't know. But maybe around 10th century, with the form of "keris budo" (believed to be oldest form of keris, although no pictured source on it...). But, I hope don't confuse it with the form of what mistakenly mentioned by certain Western writers as "keris majapahit" (although locally in Java, call them "keris sajen"...). Locally, Majapahit style (13th-15th century) regarded to be one of the best style in javanese keris, the golden era of Javanese keris making...

GANJAWULUNG

Jussi M. · 30th January 2009, 08:28 PM

Greetings,

Thanks Mr. Rick and Mr. Ganjawulung. As to where to begin I´d say it is best to begin from the beginning, pun intended. That´ll be India or if you will the first verifiably known specimen found in the island of Java. Not West Java. Not East Java. Java as a the whole island. Now we need few boundaries for this if we want to proceed on a fruitful manner. Therefore I propose we work from the widely accepted facts first and concentrate on the more questionable or less known artifacts later. I know this can be understood on a pretty wide scope but it is the principle on which I propose we should begin our study with.

I further propose the following method of work: Please identify

1) keris
2) time
3) place
4) argumentation for the 3 above being true

Of course other methods are to be prioritized will they provide more sense.

Thanks,

Jussi M. · 14th June 2010, 10:34 PM

Time for the yearly bump!

Jussi M. · 15th November 2011, 07:34 PM

And a new to the rest of 2011.

29th January 2009, 06:37 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Jussi, I believe there is a timeline of sorts ; getting all to agree on when and where could be problematic though . Where would we start ? When should we start ? Majahpahit ? Candi Sukuh carvings ? India ? We will need what is called a 'Fog Knife' here in New England, to cut through the haze of time .. Last edited by Rick; 30th January 2009 at 03:45 AM.

30th January 2009, 08:28 PM	#6
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Greetings, Thanks Mr. Rick and Mr. Ganjawulung. As to where to begin I´d say it is best to begin from the beginning, pun intended. That´ll be India or if you will the first verifiably known specimen found in the island of Java. Not West Java. Not East Java. Java as a the whole island. Now we need few boundaries for this if we want to proceed on a fruitful manner. Therefore I propose we work from the widely accepted facts first and concentrate on the more questionable or less known artifacts later. I know this can be understood on a pretty wide scope but it is the principle on which I propose we should begin our study with. I further propose the following method of work: Please identify 1) keris 2) time 3) place 4) argumentation for the 3 above being true Of course other methods are to be prioritized will they provide more sense. Thanks, Last edited by Jussi M.; 30th January 2009 at 09:24 PM. Reason: typos

26th June 2008, 12:17 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Kai, to a degree, you are correct in what you say, but there are many levels upon which we can understand the keris. Similarly, the keris has many natures. In the old literary works we read about animals being krissed during a hunt. In historical accounts we read of a Madurese ruler getting a bit upset during a sea voyage on a Dutch vessel, and krissing a few people.In the babads we read of the people of Bali being overawed when shown a particular keris. It goes on. And on. And on. Lots of different types and natures and characters of keris. Lots of things to understand about keris. For a collector in the western world, David's approach of "do I like it" is probably more than sufficient to guide the building of a collection. After all, the collector is the person who needs to live with the keris, not somebody else, and if he doesn't like the keris, no matter how good some expert might tell him it is, then he's probably better to get rid of it. However, when we push past that essentially personal approach, and we seek to come to terms with the way in which other people in other places and at other times may have thought about the keris, we have gone past the persona of a simple collector, and we have become a student. No student can claim to be a student unless he is prepared to study. Thus, the understanding of anything, including the keris needs to be rooted in study. Lets move a little away from keris, and consider something a little bit more a part of our own world. Lets think about economics. A 16 year old high school student might have some small understanding of economics, however, when he enters university and begins to study for his BA in economics, he finds that a whole new world has opened up to him. Now, this first or second year uni student is guided by a professor who completed his own Phd perhaps 20 years ago. The professor's knowledge and understanding of economics is formidable, and has gone past the level of simple mechanics and entered the sphere of philosophy. Does this professor attempt to teach all of what he knows to the new student in his first year? No, of course he does not, because the new student will not understand what he is being taught. As the student advances with his study he will understand more and more, and his questions will indicate to his teachers the level of knowledge that he is ready to receive. Eventually this student will perhaps complete his own Phd, and will have achieved a very high level of understanding of economics. However, his understanding could well be a different understanding to the understanding of his professor when he first began his studies. What I am saying here is that there is no easy way to achieve understanding, and no understanding can be universally accepted as the "correct" understanding. In order to achieve any level of understanding that understanding must be rooted in study. In the case of the keris the study that must be carried out embraces the fields of culture, sociology, religion, history, art, literature, archeology, technology---just to mention the more obvious ones. However, with all that said, it is still possible to achieve at least two things:- 1) an understanding of various facets of the keris as that understanding applies at this point in time 2) an understanding that other people, living in a different cultural context to our own, may have an understanding that varies from our own:- we may not be able to understand in the same way that these others do, but we can understand that they understand. This subject definitely does not fall into the "too hard basket". But it does require some mental effort to explore it. If the mental effort is deemed not to be worth the potential result, then the obvious course of action is simply not to think. On the other hand---

29th January 2009, 03:57 PM	#3
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Up! Greetings. Thought of reviving this thread with the hope it would get more attention than it did last year. Mr. Maisey as well as some others have mentioned that both time and place are of great importance in understanding the keris. My question now is, is there a known lineage of designs that can be put onto a timeline of different Javanese kerises? Something like this: I do not mean to reinvent the Tangguh system. What I am after is a simple timeline with the development of the major designs. Does this exist and if it doesnt, can it be formulated? Thanks, J

14th June 2010, 10:34 PM	#7
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Time for the yearly bump!

15th November 2011, 07:34 PM	#8
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	And a new to the rest of 2011.